Question:

And is probably not a good choice for a street engine, anyway, very different criteria. Are F1 engines torn down after every race?

Nope.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the penalty for missing the target is $5 per vehicle per 0.1 mpg.  So if you are below the mandated 27.5 mpg, a change across the car line that gave you an extra 0.1 mpg would be worth $5 per car.  Yeah, I know times 6 million vehicles that’s $30 million but this is big business and you are still only talking about $5 on a $20,000 car. And if your CAFE is already 27.5 its worth nothing. $30 million is $30 million. Doesn’t matter what kind of business you’re in, $30 million OFF YOUR BOTTOM LINE is VERY significant.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they don’t just throw $30 million away. But, when your profit is about $5B, it is less than 1% – not VERY significant in my judgement.     Considering that in most businesses about 90% of your gross (or more) ends up being bills to be paid, you protect the remaining 10% as best you can, hence the existence of 5W-20 part-synthetic. Who knows how close Honda is to that 27.5 limit?If they slip below, it’s an instant $30 million tax. Smart businessmen are careful not to let that sort of thing happen. It may well be that CAFE is one reason Honda is not currently heavily involved in light trucks, and not in V8s. North America, primarily the US, is the world’s foremost market for large engines with low fuel mileage. And the US is the *only* country with any sort of CAFE nonsense.

The system could be easily fixed but it would require the political will to do so.  The big car companies didn’t want it to change so it hasn’t.  But the big car companies (you know the two I mean) are getting smaller and they may be overruled some day.  Or maybe gas will go to $6 a gallon and make CAFE irrelevant. CAFE costs Ford tens of millions every year, again, right off the bottom line. Honda does not want to be Ford; Ford loses money. Honda does not.

IMO, the reason Honda makes money is that Honda looks forward beyond the next quarter.  Saving $5 a car today is not worth pissing off even 1% of your customers.  That’s why I wouldn’t be worried about running 5W-20 in a Honda that specified it.  Higher price and limited availability would piss me off a little though. Ford loses money because they are greedy bastards.  They will burn you to death for $5 a car.  Great in the short run but it tends to discourage repeat purchases. It may also be that Honda is planning for further expansion into larger vehicles (think Ridgeline), and is banking CAFE credits in preparation for that. Honda manufactures most of its large vehicles, like the Odyssey and the Ridgeline, in North America, so it has a separate CAFE quota to meet for those cars.

Don’t be naive, its much more complex than that.  Ody, Pilot, Ridgeline are all trucks built in NA.  As such they are separate from cars.  And they may even be separate from each other if some are domestic and others are import.  But, you say, they are all made in   North America.  They could still be either domestic or import depending on whether domestic content exceeds 75%.  By manipulating the sourcing of a few parts you can flip NA factory output from domestic to import and back again to manipulate your numbers.  Of course the ultimate dodge would be a Honda Suburban which is not even covered by CAFE. But, 0.1 mpg is still only worth $5 per car. Since there is literally no way to predict or plan for the consequences of any sort of governmental action, it makes sense for Honda to grab every straw that waves its way, since you never know when it might be needed. Hence the 5W-20 part-synthetic.

Not sure I understand this.  What is the part-syhnthetic?  Does Honda require that in 5W-20?  Is that why someone was saying it was "only" an extra $1 per quart?  It sounds like Honda is just inefficiently transferring costs to its customers.  Wouldn’t you prefer that Honda just charge you $5 (or $15) dollars more for the car than get hit for a $1 on every quart of oil?  (You might recover a third of that $1 on fuel savings but you won’t notice that.) There’s also the "green" factor. Honda already is run by safety nuts, and they’ve been proponents of the "green" thing since CVCC days. I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda is trying for that last 0.1mpg on philosophical grounds.

Heh heh, I wonder if it was the safety nuts or the greens that set the Accord Hybrid to be the fastest model in the Accord lineup. I don’t doubt that Honda has more of a soul than most car companies but I don’t think they are quite as zen as to want their tree to crash in the forest if no one hears it.  Honda has made great advances in safety and environment but they usually don’t hide their efforts.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That being said, Honda never redesigned their engines for 5W-20. The "mandating" of 5W-20 was likely more a business decision than an engineering choice.  The same (or similar) Honda engines sold elsewhere in the world are doing fine on 5W-30 or 10W-30.  In a temperate climate where I live, it might be fine.  If it gets really hot, I’d worry that the oil might be excessively thin.  I’d think anyone who’s really freaked out, but still wants to follow the 5W-20 recommendation might consider installing an aftermarket (fin type) oil cooler. you don’t need to reengineer the engine – you reengineer the oil. as long as it maintains its film & lubricity in the face of the kinds of conditions the 4-ball test doesn’t consider, who cares?  as far as i’m concerned, any oil, dino or syn, that uses the same technology as that which can keep a 18,000 rpm, 1,000+ hp, at i-don’t-know-how-many-degrees F1 engine on the track for two hours is quite good enough for me thanks very much.  "thinness" is irrelevant. An F1 engine isn’t going to be using Pennzoil 5W-20.  Last season, the Ferrari team was using Shell Helix F1SL785, which isn’t exactly available to the general public. maybe, but some definitely use mobil 1.  istr valvoline being a prominent sponsor as well.  my point was that the /technology/ used in F1 is still used in ordinary oils. What I was getting at wasn’t the technology, but that the final product isn’t going to be the same.  The Ferrari team wasn’t using an off the shelf motor oil in their F1 engines, and its viscosity was probably too thick for your average street car driven in sub- desert temps.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the oil was somehow preheated. I doubt there’s any technology going into these 5W-20 oils that one can’t find in current off the shelf 5W-30. I was under the impression that among similar oil "chemistries", a higher viscosity (operating temp) oil also has higher film strength. i’m not a tribologist, but i don’t believe that’s true.  you can use air as a bearing/lubricant in some applications, so viscosity isn’t the final factor.  as i understand it, the ability of the oil to stick to the surface of the material is the key.  the additive packages in some modern oils are pretty darned impressive. I was only thinking it’s one of several factors.  My understanding is that all things being equal, a thicker (operating temp) oil will have a higher thin film strength.  Of course not all things are equal.  The API standard for 5W-20 allows for more zinc (compared to 5W-30/10W-30), and several of the oils in this weight are reputed to contain rather high levels of molybdenum anti-wear additives. Add extreme conditions (cooling system failure) and the film strength of a thinner oil may not be enough.  Although 5W-20 may be good for most applications, it’s still a "once size fits all" solution that seems to be geared towards fuel economy.  I still wouldn’t use it if I owned a Pilot and was towing a small boat.  Maybe 10W-30. with respect, this is just supposition.  i want facts.  last time i was in a tire shop, i was listening to a guy make his choice based on which "looked more aggressive".  was he a hydrodynamasist?  how about polymer scientist?  chemist?  no.  in other words, his was an utterly uninformed decision.  when i hear stuff about "thicker is better", i think "tire dude". I wasn’t thinking "thicker is better" under all circumstances.  A good many automakers do have additional recommendations for extreme conditions such as towing or desert heat.  My latest owner’s manual says to use straight weight (30 or 40), 20W-40, or 20W-50 in such cases, when 5W-30 is the recommended year-round oil for normal driving conditions.  If I lived in Arizona, I’d probably just junk all that and use Mobil 1 10W-30 year round, and throw in a yearly oil analysis to make sure it was working OK.  I just sent a sample to Blackstone Labs this week.

oil analysis is a /very/ smart thing to do every now & then!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That being said, Honda never redesigned their engines for 5W-20. The "mandating" of 5W-20 was likely more a business decision than an engineering choice.  The same (or similar) Honda engines sold elsewhere in the world are doing fine on 5W-30 or 10W-30.  In a temperate climate where I live, it might be fine.  If it gets really hot, I’d worry that the oil might be excessively thin.  I’d think anyone who’s really freaked out, but still wants to follow the 5W-20 recommendation might consider installing an aftermarket (fin type) oil cooler. you don’t need to reengineer the engine – you reengineer the oil. as long as it maintains its film & lubricity in the face of the kinds of conditions the 4-ball test doesn’t consider, who cares?  as far as i’m concerned, any oil, dino or syn, that uses the same technology as that which can keep a 18,000 rpm, 1,000+ hp, at i-don’t-know-how-many-degrees F1 engine on the track for two hours is quite good enough for me thanks very much.  "thinness" is irrelevant. An F1 engine isn’t going to be using Pennzoil 5W-20.  Last season, the Ferrari team was using Shell Helix F1SL785, which isn’t exactly available to the general public. maybe, but some definitely use mobil 1.  istr valvoline being a prominent sponsor as well.  my point was that the /technology/ used in F1 is still used in ordinary oils.

What I was getting at wasn’t the technology, but that the final product isn’t going to be the same.  The Ferrari team wasn’t using an off the shelf motor oil in their F1 engines, and its viscosity was probably too thick for your average street car driven in sub- desert temps.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the oil was somehow preheated. I doubt there’s any technology going into these 5W-20 oils that one can’t find in current off the shelf 5W-30. I was under the impression that among similar oil "chemistries", a higher viscosity (operating temp) oil also has higher film strength. i’m not a tribologist, but i don’t believe that’s true.  you can use air as a bearing/lubricant in some applications, so viscosity isn’t the final factor.  as i understand it, the ability of the oil to stick to the surface of the material is the key.  the additive packages in some modern oils are pretty darned impressive.

I was only thinking it’s one of several factors.  My understanding is that all things being equal, a thicker (operating temp) oil will have a higher thin film strength.  Of course not all things are equal.  The API standard for 5W-20 allows for more zinc (compared to 5W-30/10W-30), and several of the oils in this weight are reputed to contain rather high levels of molybdenum anti-wear additives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Add extreme conditions (cooling system failure) and the film strength of a thinner oil may not be enough.  Although 5W-20 may be good for most applications, it’s still a "once size fits all" solution that seems to be geared towards fuel economy.  I still wouldn’t use it if I owned a Pilot and was towing a small boat.  Maybe 10W-30. with respect, this is just supposition.  i want facts.  last time i was in a tire shop, i was listening to a guy make his choice based on which "looked more aggressive".  was he a hydrodynamasist?  how about polymer scientist?  chemist?  no.  in other words, his was an utterly uninformed decision.  when i hear stuff about "thicker is better", i think "tire

dude". I wasn’t thinking "thicker is better" under all circumstances.  A good many automakers do have additional recommendations for extreme conditions such as towing or desert heat.  My latest owner’s manual says to use straight weight (30 or 40), 20W-40, or 20W-50 in such cases, when 5W-30 is the recommended year-round oil for normal driving conditions.  If I lived in Arizona, I’d probably just junk all that and use Mobil 1 10W-30 year round, and throw in a yearly oil analysis to make sure it was working OK.  I just sent a sample to Blackstone Labs this week.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That being said, Honda never redesigned their engines for 5W-20.  The "mandating" of 5W-20 was likely more a business decision than an engineering choice.  The same (or similar) Honda engines sold elsewhere in the world are doing fine on 5W-30 or 10W-30.  In a temperate climate where I live, it might be fine.  If it gets really hot, I’d worry that the oil might be excessively thin.  I’d think anyone who’s really freaked out, but still wants to follow the 5W-20 recommendation might consider installing an aftermarket (fin type) oil cooler. you don’t need to reengineer the engine – you reengineer the oil.  as long as it maintains its film & lubricity in the face of the kinds of conditions the 4-ball test doesn’t consider, who cares?  as far as i’m concerned, any oil, dino or syn, that uses the same technology as that which can keep a 18,000 rpm, 1,000+ hp, at i-don’t-know-how-many-degrees F1 engine on the track for two hours is quite good enough for me thanks very much.  "thinness" is irrelevant. An F1 engine isn’t going to be using Pennzoil 5W-20.  Last season, the Ferrari team was using Shell Helix F1SL785, which isn’t exactly available to the general public.

And is probably not a good choice for a street engine, anyway, very different criteria. Are F1 engines torn down after every race?

Response:

Precisely right.  And a 0.1 mpg gain only matters if you are below the mandated number (I think its 27 for cars and 21 for trucks) or are banking credits in anticipation of dropping below in coming years.  

According to the CAFE site  http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafe.html the penalty for missing the target is $5 per vehicle per 0.1 mpg.  So if you are below the mandated 27.5 mpg, a change across the car line that gave you an extra 0.1 mpg would be worth $5 per car.  Yeah, I know times 6 million vehicles that’s $30 million but this is big business and you are still only talking about $5 on a $20,000 car. And if your CAFE is already 27.5 its worth nothing. Are these numbers publicly available?  They should be.  It would be interesting to see how much difference a little oil viscosity makes.

Lots of interesting stats at this site but nothing by manufacturer. (Did you know that 54.4% of all asian imports in 1982 had front wheel drive?)

Response:

with respect, this is just supposition.  i want facts.  last time i was in a tire shop, i was listening to a guy make his choice based on which "looked more aggressive".  was he a hydrodynamasist?  how about polymer scientist?  chemist?  no.  in other words, his was an utterly uninformed decision.  when i hear stuff about "thicker is better", i think "tire dude".

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14148345&BRD=2311&PAG=461&d… An interesting read on racing oil weights. 0W-5!

Response:

the penalty for missing the target is $5 per vehicle per 0.1 mpg.  So if you are below the mandated 27.5 mpg, a change across the car line that gave you an extra 0.1 mpg would be worth $5 per car.  Yeah, I know times 6 million vehicles that’s $30 million but this is big business and you are still only talking about $5 on a $20,000 car. And if your CAFE is already 27.5 its worth nothing.

$30 million is $30 million. Doesn’t matter what kind of business you’re in, $30 million OFF YOUR BOTTOM LINE is VERY significant. Considering that in most businesses about 90% of your gross (or more) ends up being bills to be paid, you protect the remaining 10% as best you can, hence the existence of 5W-20 part-synthetic. Who knows how close Honda is to that 27.5 limit?If they slip below, it’s an instant $30 million tax. Smart businessmen are careful not to let that sort of thing happen. It may well be that CAFE is one reason Honda is not currently heavily involved in light trucks, and not in V8s. North America, primarily the US, is the world’s foremost market for large engines with low fuel mileage. And the US is the *only* country with any sort of CAFE nonsense. CAFE costs Ford tens of millions every year, again, right off the bottom line. Honda does not want to be Ford; Ford loses money. Honda does not. It may also be that Honda is planning for further expansion into larger vehicles (think Ridgeline), and is banking CAFE credits in preparation for that. Honda manufactures most of its large vehicles, like the Odyssey and the Ridgeline, in North America, so it has a separate CAFE quota to meet for those cars. Since there is literally no way to predict or plan for the consequences of any sort of governmental action, it makes sense for Honda to grab every straw that waves its way, since you never know when it might be needed. Hence the 5W-20 part-synthetic. There’s also the "green" factor. Honda already is run by safety nuts, and they’ve been proponents of the "green" thing since CVCC days. I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda is trying for that last 0.1mpg on philosophical grounds. — TeGGeR

Question:

While it’s true that a block heater is meant to heat the engine, and not to give you heat faster, it heats the engine by heating the coolant, and does give you heat faster. One of the risks of a block heater is that it’s seal will fail, and allow coolant to leak, although this is very rare. Because the oil sits in the oil pan below the engine, the block heater is not very good at heating the engine oil. There are other methods of heating an engine. You can get a plate heater with a magnetic base that attaches to the oil pan. You can also get an immersion heater that goes in the dipstick hole. Both of these heat the engine by heating the oil, and have less affect on the coolant. I have also seen a heater that mounts in-line in the radiator hose, and circulates hot coolant. This preheats the car interior heater core. I have never known anyone to use one of these though. Dan (This account is not used for email.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A block heater isn’t meant to give you heat faster.  It’s job is to keep the oil in the engine warm so it lubricates better on a cold start.  Your temp gauge measures the temp of the engine coolant, which is also used to heat through your heater core.  Block heaters don’t heat that water.  It has to be heated by the running engine, so a block heater won’t help you there. It’s only purpose is to save wear and tear on the engine at start up. Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Response:

A block heater isn’t meant to give you heat faster.  It’s job is to keep the oil in the engine warm so it lubricates better on a cold start.  Your temp gauge measures the temp of the engine coolant, which is also used to heat through your heater core.  Block heaters don’t heat that water.  It has to be heated by the running engine, so a block heater won’t help you there. It’s only purpose is to save wear and tear on the engine at start up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Response:

Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

The engine heater is meant to keep the engine at a temperature that will help it start.  It is not there to get you heat any faster.   Alex

Response:

(most properly maintained cars will start at -40F

Whether your automatic transmission will work at such temperatures is another matter!

Response:

I had a bitch starting my truck at -17 with no block heater. Many people also equate a car that started in cold weather as OK. A common thing is burning out the cam bearings on cold days with no block heater. The car started, the oil had pressure, but it was to thick to get up to the cam — Stephen W. Hansen ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician ASE Undercar Specialist

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have had a few cars where running the block heater for 2 hours caused the temp guage to move ever so slightly, but most don’t show it. How quickly the temp guage moves up the dial when you start driving is another matter. You should see a noticeable difference then, with normal temp achieved in a short period. As others have noted, using the block heater at +30F isn’t all that beneficial. It will reduce fuel consumption and oil contamination slightly, since there will be a shorter time when fuel can condense on the cylinder walls. The colder it gets, the more help it is. At -40F, a block heater may allow the car to start when it otherwise wouldn’t (most properly maintained cars will start at -40F) and will certainly reduce the load on the battery, starter and alternator, and improve lubrication on start-up. Dan (This account is not used for email.) Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Response:

Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

If you could hear it ‘cooking’, it’s working. Government of Canada concluded that plugging in more than three hours was a total waste. One or two hours at -30f is just right, or use a block heater ‘economizer’thermostatic extension cord, which senses the temp and turns it off and on. +30f is shirt-sleeve weather, as far as your car is concerned. ‘Curly’

Response:

I have had a few cars where running the block heater for 2 hours caused the temp guage to move ever so slightly, but most don’t show it. How quickly the temp guage moves up the dial when you start driving is another matter. You should see a noticeable difference then, with normal temp achieved in a short period. As others have noted, using the block heater at +30F isn’t all that beneficial. It will reduce fuel consumption and oil contamination slightly, since there will be a shorter time when fuel can condense on the cylinder walls. The colder it gets, the more help it is. At -40F, a block heater may allow the car to start when it otherwise wouldn’t (most properly maintained cars will start at -40F) and will certainly reduce the load on the battery, starter and alternator, and improve lubrication on start-up. Dan (This account is not used for email.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Response:

Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Sounds fine to me. If you want the whole block warm enough to feel heat right away, you’ll have to plug it in longer than an hour, especially with an air temp of -30.

Response:

oh, no no +30F not minus !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ? Sounds fine to me. If you want the whole block warm enough to feel heat right away, you’ll have to plug it in longer than an hour, especially with an air temp of -30.

Response:

oh, no no +30F not minus !

At +30 you don’t need a block heater. It’s a waste of power to use one at temperatures above +10 F or so. No it won’t warm the engine up enough that the temp guage will come up off the pin. Most temp guages only start to come off the pin at about +140 F If it’s a warm car interior you’re after, get a 115V car heater and a timer that will start the heater about an hour before you plan to use the car.

Response:

Acura TL 2004 Had engine block heater installed a few days ago. Wanted to give it a test – 30F today I pluged in for an hour or so and started car. But temp needle was at bottom, idled for about 30 secs – no change. Turned heat on – no difference I could tell than w/o the heater. Isn’t the needle supposed to NOT be at the bottom ? Basically I could tell no difference. This sounds right ?

Response:

Question:

I am hoping somebody here can help me. I have a 94 accord EX with 250k km.     I replaced the clutch 5 days ago, but when I took it off the jack-stands it would not start.  The engine would turnover, but would not catch.  I left it, and came back the next day- and it started fine.    I went for a test drive and everything worked great.  On my way back down the laneway to my parents house (they live on a farm) I hit some ice and slid into a snow bank.  I had my dad tow me out with the tractor, but in the process I had lost both drive belts.     I replaced these the same day and it drove great.  It even started and ran without the belts.     I drove back to where I live(about 100km away) and parked it. When I came back the next day it would not start     The starter motor cranks, but the engine will not start.  I checked the spark plugs which look fine and will spark when the engine is cranked.  When I put a screwdriver into the lines that feed the spark-plugs I get about a 1/4 inch spark to the engine.    I can hear the gas pump when I turn the ignition, and when I undo a bolt on the fuel rail, there is pressure.  I tried the computer diagnostics, but the check engine light just sits there and does not blink.    If anyone can help me out I’d really appreciate it.  Not having my car makes me feel neutered!

Response:

  If anyone can help me out I’d really appreciate it.  Not having my car makes me feel neutered!

   Sounds just like the symptoms my ‘94 Accord LX showed at around 170 K miles.  It was solved with a new ignition switch. Rudy

Response:

Hi Matt Have you checked your fuel injectors? You should hear them click while you start the engine. The way I’ve checked them is by using the following poor man’s stethoscope: Get a thin stick (one of those garden sticks or a top of a fishing pole will do), Put one side of the stick to the injector. Make a fist and put the stick in that fist and put your fist to your ear. When you start the engine, you should clearly hear the clicking. If they are not clicking, check their control lines. I think they go through a resistor pack on an accord. It is hard to believe all resistors are blown, but maybe the connector is making bad contact intermittently. Hope you find it soon. Remco

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am hoping somebody here can help me. I have a 94 accord EX with 250k km.     I replaced the clutch 5 days ago, but when I took it off the jack-stands it would not start.  The engine would turnover, but would not catch.  I left it, and came back the next day- and it started fine.    I went for a test drive and everything worked great.  On my way back down the laneway to my parents house (they live on a farm) I hit some ice and slid into a snow bank.  I had my dad tow me out with the tractor, but in the process I had lost both drive belts.     I replaced these the same day and it drove great.  It even started and ran without the belts.     I drove back to where I live(about 100km away) and parked it. When I came back the next day it would not start     The starter motor cranks, but the engine will not start.  I checked the spark plugs which look fine and will spark when the engine is cranked.  When I put a screwdriver into the lines that feed the spark-plugs I get about a 1/4 inch spark to the engine.    I can hear the gas pump when I turn the ignition, and when I undo a bolt on the fuel rail, there is pressure.  I tried the computer diagnostics, but the check engine light just sits there and does not blink.    If anyone can help me out I’d really appreciate it.  Not having my car makes me feel neutered!

Our Odyssey did the same thing. . .  it was a stuck injector, bleeding all the fuel into the engine and flooding it (overnight). Your manaul explains how to start a flooded Honda. Try it and see if it works. A couple tanks of gasohol fixed ours, and we use it every now and then for prevention. ‘Curly’

Response:

Our Odyssey did the same thing. . .  it was a stuck injector, bleeding all the fuel into the engine and flooding it (overnight). Your manaul explains how to start a flooded Honda. Try it and see if it works. A couple tanks of gasohol fixed ours, and we use it every now and then for prevention. ‘Curly’

Thank-you Soooo Much!!!  I turned the ignition while stepping on the gas (for flooded engine, this reduces gas to cylinders) and Presto. I can’t thank-you enough- Such a relief!  I’ll buy some fuel injector cleaner tomorrow when the stores open and run it through. Happy New year all, Matt.

Response:

Our Odyssey did the same thing. . .  it was a stuck injector, bleeding all the fuel into the engine and flooding it (overnight). Your manaul explains how to start a flooded Honda. Try it and see if it works. A couple tanks of gasohol fixed ours, and we use it (Gasohol) every now and then for prevention. ‘Curly’

Thank-you Soooo Much!!!  I turned the ignition while stepping on the gas (for flooded engine, this reduces gas to cylinders) and Presto. I can’t thank-you enough- Such a relief!  I’ll buy some fuel injector cleaner tomorrow when the stores open and run it through. Happy New year all, Matt.

It wasn’t something you would guess, was it?   Glad it worked for you .  Happy New Year. ‘Curly’

Response:

It wasn’t something you would guess, was it?   Glad it worked for you .  Happy New Year. ‘Curly’

I’ve added this to the no-start section of the FAQ. OK with you? — TeGGeR

Question:

I have a big problem now! I hope you can give me your opinion in the next 12 hours: My ‘91 Accord LX’s ignition switch has been acting funny lately (hard to turn the key to start the car, able to remove the key when the car is running, stuff like that…). I was hoping to take advantage of my week off (this week) to go to my favourite honest honda specialist mechanic (25-30 miles away) to fix the problem BUT, the stupid thing died this weekend, they key won’t turn, the car won’t start (obviously).

If you remove the steering wheel and top and bottom column covers, you can remove the lock cylinder and use a slim screwdriver to start the car. If the ignition swith is functional, that is. Have you tried a NEW KEY? Sometimes it’s just an extremely worn key that causes problems that are misdiagnosed as ignition switch problems. That you can remove the key with the ignition on is a telltale for that. Be pretty sad if you spend all this money and all it was, was a $3 key. So I called a few places nearby this morning, Firestone gave me the best quote ($225) so I got my car towed there this morning and asked them to fix the problem,

Sometimes the lowest quote isn’t the best. I would not trust Firestone. the guy said no problem, should be ready by 5pm, call us or we’ll call you. At 3pm I get a call, he’s telling me the technician is not sure what the problem is and it seems long to find out, but he didn’t have anything new to say. Finally at 6pm I call them and the car is not ready. He tells me that the technician did the following: Apparently there is a "top part" and a "bottom part" to this thing,

The ignition switch assembly consists of the lock cylinder and the ignition switch itself. Both are easy to remove and test. There are specified test procedures for checking the ignition switch. he said the tech cleaned the debris from the "top part" but the "bottom part" is not working. Car is not starting. Not a very clear description but that’s all I know. He still couldn’t give me any quote or anything, he said we’ll call you tomorrow morning.

He probably means the ignition switch part contacts are burned and not making full contact. This is the part that causes all the trouble for most people. Now, what I need to know is: what the heck is that "top part" and "bottom part", how expensive each of them are? Also I am affraid they want to charge me a lot of labor for finding out the problem, which really sucks. What kind of Attitude I shouild have tomorrow when they call me or when I call them?

I think you should tell them to put it back together, pay them for the time you asked them to spend on the car, and get the car towed to a Honda dealer or a competent independent. At least the Honda dealer will have the repair manuals, replacment parts, past experience, and will be better able to diagnose your specific problem. You are one of many to have this happen. Unfortunately the Firestone guy has probably never seen this problem before, so he’s just guessing. — TeGGeR

Question:

    Couldn’t agree more. When we are on the way to Wisconsin and the old Exploder decides to take a stop on its own in Cascade Iowa, I want it to be fixed there, not have to wait for parts and a technician from Nagasaki to arrive on site. (Yes, I’m a bit of a redneck, and I don’t buy Japanese cars.) — MICHAEL J. MacMAHON Captain (ret.) KCPD Remember, Golf is not a matter of Life or Death; it is MUCH more important than that.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some interesting answers being offered up. Resale values have squat to do with my purchase decision. If it looks good sitting in my driveway and performs the tasks I ask, that’s the one for me. If, perchance, something were to go drastically wrong in Armpit, Saskatchewan….. I would prefer to drive something that had a locally available part supply – something that someone locally had knowledge and test equipment to deal with rather than count pennies five or ten years from now. I’m an old school kinda guy (read that as ‘curmudgeon’)…. I wont try to sway your mind but I will say that part of the purchase decision should include your preference. Too many people leave themselves less than pleased as they aim for something without tangible, immediate benefits. Whatever your eventual choice….. drive wisely and safely…. I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Geeez, Jim, didn’t I say that?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some interesting answers being offered up. Resale values have squat to do with my purchase decision. If it looks good sitting in my driveway and performs the tasks I ask, that’s the one for me. If, perchance, something were to go drastically wrong in Armpit, Saskatchewan….. I would prefer to drive something that had a locally available part supply – something that someone locally had knowledge and test equipment to deal with rather than count pennies five or ten years from now. I’m an old school kinda guy (read that as ‘curmudgeon’)…. I wont try to sway your mind but I will say that part of the purchase decision should include your preference. Too many people leave themselves less than pleased as they aim for something without tangible, immediate benefits. Whatever your eventual choice….. drive wisely and safely….

Response:

Well, you are talking apples and oranges.. A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan

Acura. The Acura MDX is a truck, not a car.  That is what I meant in my example.  I never mentioned cars. Using the KBB is a great idea, but there must be some even better guide. When a finance person quotes me on a 39 month lease for a new 2005 Anytruck or 2005 Anycar, he has in front of him the estimate of what it will be worth at the end of the lease.  This is theoretically how the cost is determined for the lease.  I want to see that chart.  Does he use a KBB extrapolation? I dunno, but I doubt it. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Posts musta crossed in the "mail"…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geeez, Jim, didn’t I say that?

Response:

Don’t go by lease-end residuals. While they ARE often close to the

estimated value, manufacturers often raise and lower the residuals to make metal move (or not). Kelley Blue Book is a better guide. KBB really is?  Thanks.  reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Don’t go by lease-end residuals. While they ARE often close to the estimated value, manufacturers often raise and lower the residuals to make metal move (or not). Kelley Blue Book is a better guide.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, you are talking apples and oranges.. A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan Acura. The Acura MDX is a truck, not a car.  That is what I meant in my example. I never mentioned cars. Using the KBB is a great idea, but there must be some even better guide. When a finance person quotes me on a 39 month lease for a new 2005 Anytruck or 2005 Anycar, he has in front of him the estimate of what it will be worth at the end of the lease.  This is theoretically how the cost is determined for the lease.  I want to see that chart.  Does he use a KBB extrapolation? I dunno, but I doubt it. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

    I’m not a big fan of import trucks. I wouldn’t trust one to haul my horse and trailer without breaking down. They just aren’t made the same, for some odd reason, and as Jim had already mentioned, when a truck breaks down, I need to be able to get the parts locally with no waiting.     I’ll take any year Ford truck any day, and experience tells me they don’t depreciate all that fast, and it’s even better if it is a 4X4 Ford truck, and nothing smaller than 1/2 ton.     I’m one of those guys that drives his trucks ’til the wheels fall off ( usually around a quarter million miles or so ).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, you are talking apples and oranges.. A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan Acura. The Acura MDX is a truck, not a car.  That is what I meant in my example. I never mentioned cars. Using the KBB is a great idea, but there must be some even better guide. When a finance person quotes me on a 39 month lease for a new 2005 Anytruck or 2005 Anycar, he has in front of him the estimate of what it will be worth at the end of the lease.  This is theoretically how the cost is determined for the lease.  I want to see that chart.  Does he use a KBB extrapolation? I dunno, but I doubt it. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Some interesting answers being offered up. Resale values have squat to do with my purchase decision. If it looks good sitting in my driveway and performs the tasks I ask, that’s the one for me. If, perchance, something were to go drastically wrong in Armpit, Saskatchewan….. I would prefer to drive something that had a locally available part supply – something that someone locally had knowledge and test equipment to deal with rather than count pennies five or ten years from now. I’m an old school kinda guy (read that as ‘curmudgeon’)…. I wont try to sway your mind but I will say that part of the purchase decision should include your preference. Too many people leave themselves less than pleased as they aim for something without tangible, immediate benefits. Whatever your eventual choice….. drive wisely and safely….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Kelly Blue Book – www.kbb.com, has a five-year cost of ownership that projects all costs for a vehicle for a five year period, including depreciation, insurance, etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What I do is use KELLEY BLUE BOOK to see what the same model of 3 years ago is worth. It’s the best estimate of what a new anything will be worth in 3 years. Yes, you are right. The Japanese vehicles retain a higher % of their purchase price…but they cost more to begin with. So often the domestic vehicle, after all the rebates, is the better 3 year deal. You have to run the numbers. All of that being said, here is a great rule of thumb: Most vehicles…new or used, have a financial half-life of 3 years. In other words, if you pay market value for a NEW OR USED vehicle, it will be worth about half that in 3 years. Japanese tend to be worth a hair more due to the perceived quailty advantage and some domestic vehicles will be worth a hair less. But it’s a good rule of thumb. It works for used too. At any point in a vehicle’s roughly 14 year expected showroom-to-junkyard life expectancy, it will be worth about half in 3 years. A $30,000 vehicle is worth $15000 in 3 years. In 3 more years (6 from showroom) it’s worth $7500. In 9 years from showroom you’re at $3250 and at 12 years it depends on the repairs needed or not as the value approaches zero.     Well, you are talking apples and oranges..     A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan Acura.     Trucks and SUVs are still a relatively new venture for the Japanese and European makers, with a few exceptions.     If you want a simple idea, try thinking of it this way. I can buy today, a vehicle manufactured 10-12 years ago for a tenth of the price. That works out at about $3K a year. Oversimplified, but then, your new vehicle depreciates the minute you drive it off the lot. A car you buy today will depreciate at a faster rate than a truck you buy today.     Buy a truck and conserve your money. Forget trying to compare apples and oranges.     Oh, I forgot the one thing I really like about Ford trucks. I can always buy new parts to fix them, whether it’s a new Ford, or a 1951 F-1, or a 1928 bastard "T" pickup ( yes, I have worked on those ). You can’t do that with car. Most manufacturer car parts start to dry up 10 years after manufacture. I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

What I do is use KELLEY BLUE BOOK to see what the same model of 3 years ago is worth. It’s the best estimate of what a new anything will be worth in 3 years. Yes, you are right. The Japanese vehicles retain a higher % of their purchase price…but they cost more to begin with. So often the domestic vehicle, after all the rebates, is the better 3 year deal. You have to run the numbers. All of that being said, here is a great rule of thumb: Most vehicles…new or used, have a financial half-life of 3 years. In other words, if you pay market value for a NEW OR USED vehicle, it will be worth about half that in 3 years. Japanese tend to be worth a hair more due to the perceived quailty advantage and some domestic vehicles will be worth a hair less. But it’s a good rule of thumb. It works for used too. At any point in a vehicle’s roughly 14 year expected showroom-to-junkyard life expectancy, it will be worth about half in 3 years. A $30,000 vehicle is worth $15000 in 3 years. In 3 more years (6 from showroom) it’s worth $7500. In 9 years from showroom you’re at $3250 and at 12 years it depends on the repairs needed or not as the value approaches zero.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Well, you are talking apples and oranges..     A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan Acura.     Trucks and SUVs are still a relatively new venture for the Japanese and European makers, with a few exceptions.     If you want a simple idea, try thinking of it this way. I can buy today, a vehicle manufactured 10-12 years ago for a tenth of the price. That works out at about $3K a year. Oversimplified, but then, your new vehicle depreciates the minute you drive it off the lot. A car you buy today will depreciate at a faster rate than a truck you buy today.     Buy a truck and conserve your money. Forget trying to compare apples and oranges.     Oh, I forgot the one thing I really like about Ford trucks. I can always buy new parts to fix them, whether it’s a new Ford, or a 1951 F-1, or a 1928 bastard "T" pickup ( yes, I have worked on those ). You can’t do that with car. Most manufacturer car parts start to dry up 10 years after manufacture. I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

    Well, you are talking apples and oranges..     A Ford *truck* holds it’s value over a car any day, particularly a Nissan Acura.     Trucks and SUVs are still a relatively new venture for the Japanese and European makers, with a few exceptions.     If you want a simple idea, try thinking of it this way. I can buy today, a vehicle manufactured 10-12 years ago for a tenth of the price. That works out at about $3K a year. Oversimplified, but then, your new vehicle depreciates the minute you drive it off the lot. A car you buy today will depreciate at a faster rate than a truck you buy today.     Buy a truck and conserve your money. Forget trying to compare apples and oranges.     Oh, I forgot the one thing I really like about Ford trucks. I can always buy new parts to fix them, whether it’s a new Ford, or a 1951 F-1, or a 1928 bastard "T" pickup ( yes, I have worked on those ). You can’t do that with car. Most manufacturer car parts start to dry up 10 years after manufacture.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

I am in the market and I am trying to compare different SUVs.  I know that, as an example, a Ford generally does not hold its value as well as an Acura, but it probably costs less initially.  I want to see an estimate of what a vehicle would be worth, say 3 years after purchase, so I can get a better idea of what a new truck will really cost per year.  Is there a site with this information?  I like my old Exploder but I am keeping my options open. reply address bot resistant and human safe

Response:

Question:

The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible.

Own a manual ‘92 Wagon 2.2, average fuel consumption (town and motorway) is 34 mpg. Take the lead out of your right boot … Bob

Response:

Has your usage changed – more use of the AC, more city stop-and-go driving & less highway, carrying around more weight in the car, etc.?  All my cars do 2-3 miles per gallon better in the winter when the AC is off. I’ve seen the opposite! Best MPG’s I’ve ever gotten were on HOT summer days. Probably 1-2 MPG better than the same 460 mile trip taken during Winter.

summer blend fuel, increased PSI in the tires due to heat, and having the windows up/AC on can help.

Response:

I’d get the catalytic converter checked.  Yep, it’s early for that to fail, but Honda had some problems with those years, and declining gas mileage is one of the symptoms.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Response:

I lived in AZ. It’s hot here. I can tell that the car run differently with premium fuel when the ambient exceed the 100 degree mark. I can get by with regular but the car just run rougher. I don’t think the wire and cap would give me problem at 56K miles. Honda owned me a free tune up and cap/wire replacement( EPA penalty settlement). I used regular NGK of course as Honda recommended. Thinking switching to Iridium plug from NGK.com next time. Everytime I put in new plug, the car run much better ..for at initial 5K. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). How about new ignition wires, new distributor cap and distributor rotor, new air filter, new fuel filter (maybe not on your particular Accord–check owner’s manual), and new (or clean up) the PCV valve. Use OEM everything (or don’t and gamble a bit). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Response:

The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Response:

The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1).

How about new ignition wires, new distributor cap and distributor rotor, new air filter, new fuel filter (maybe not on your particular Accord–check owner’s manual), and new (or clean up) the PCV valve. Use OEM everything (or don’t and gamble a bit). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Response:

The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

where do you live? its probably the fuel. if your car was running that badly, it would have set the check engine light by now.

Response:

I have  a 96 Accord EX auto with 115k and I get 27-28mpg on freeway.  I run Mobil synthetic, change trans fluid with honda fluid as rec and tune-up as needed. CaptainKrunch

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Response:

The fuel mileage on my Accord is terrible. I used to get 24-25 when new. 56K miles later, I am lucky getting 22 mpg. I got 17mpg out of a V8 Toyota. This is terrible. I have checked the tire, new plug, new filter, new oil (only Mobil 1). Premium gas will help to make it run smoother in the summer, but does not improve the mileage much. What’s wrong… to much oxgen in the fuel?

Honda 4 cylinder engines are designed to run on regular gas.  Premium gas can cause reduced mileage in a car that doesn’t need it.  If it is running better on premium, that would be an indication that something is off. You don’t say which filter is new – air cleaner would be the one I’d check first, then fuel filter, then see if the PCV & EGR valves are working. Its probably not the O2 sensor or it would be setting the check-engine light. What kind of plugs did you put in it?    Hondas tend to not work right with anything other than NGK. Has your usage changed – more use of the AC, more city stop-and-go driving & less highway, carrying around more weight in the car, etc.?  All my cars do 2-3 miles per gallon better in the winter when the AC is off. If this drop in mileage is a recent development, it might be the summer blend gas.  Try a different name brand and see if it makes a difference.  My car (‘00 Acura TL) is currently going 50 miles further on a tank of Shell than it will on Phillips 66 or Chevron.  During the winter it had the same difference using Chevron vs. the others.  

Response:

  A BMW study tested a regular gas car run on premium gas. Then tore down the engine.  They could tell which engine used premium gas from the increased engine wear.   His problem is not solved in the simple things like spark plug wires.  If wires were the problem, then car also would not idle well.  This is what the mechanic at a Honda dealer is for.  If your dealer has any integrity, then the mechanic will have a few good ‘usual’ suspects immediately for your particular type of engine.  In my case, the massive reduction in gas mileage was directly traceable to one gas station that destroyed my fuel injectors. New injectors caused a 29% increase in gas mileage – mileage fully restored.  That does not say your injectors are bad.  It does say that if you are replacing all those things in a hope of improving mileage that much, then you better also replace the wiper blades also to restore gas mileage.   My experience with Hondas is for best mileage on hot summer nights where humidity is highest.  On an Accord that averages in summer about 32 MPG, I was able to obtain multiple consecutive tanks of 37 to 39 MPG when doing only hot and humid night driving. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen the opposite! Best MPG’s I’ve ever gotten were on HOT summer days. Probably 1-2 MPG better than the same 460 mile trip taken during Winter.

Response:

Has your usage changed – more use of the AC, more city stop-and-go driving & less highway, carrying around more weight in the car, etc.?  All my cars do 2-3 miles per gallon better in the winter when the AC is off.

I’ve seen the opposite! Best MPG’s I’ve ever gotten were on HOT summer days. Probably 1-2 MPG better than the same 460 mile trip taken during Winter.

Response:

Question:

The car is a 1996 Acura Integra.  I wanted to replace the factory head unit.  I heard somewhere that doing this would kill my keyless entry. I accepted this fact and went ahead with the head unit removal.  At this moment, the factory head unit is out of the car and the new one has not yet been installed.  The keyless entry still works! This seems to contradict everything I have read.  Does anyone know how it is still working?

Response:

The problem was related to 1996 through 1998 Civics. On these cars the keyless remote receiver (and security system, if so equipped) was integrated into the head unit. The dome light wire goes through the head unit as well since it is connected to the security system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The car is a 1996 Acura Integra.  I wanted to replace the factory head unit.  I heard somewhere that doing this would kill my keyless entry. I accepted this fact and went ahead with the head unit removal.  At this moment, the factory head unit is out of the car and the new one has not yet been installed.  The keyless entry still works! This seems to contradict everything I have read.  Does anyone know how it is still working?

Response:

So where is the keyless entry receiver in the 96 Integra? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem was related to 1996 through 1998 Civics. On these cars the keyless remote receiver (and security system, if so equipped) was integrated into the head unit. The dome light wire goes through the head unit as well since it is connected to the security system. The car is a 1996 Acura Integra.  I wanted to replace the factory head unit.  I heard somewhere that doing this would kill my keyless entry. I accepted this fact and went ahead with the head unit removal.  At this moment, the factory head unit is out of the car and the new one has not yet been installed.  The keyless entry still works! This seems to contradict everything I have read.  Does anyone know how it is still working?

Response:

I believe its in the driver’s door. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So where is the keyless entry receiver in the 96 Integra? The problem was related to 1996 through 1998 Civics. On these cars the keyless remote receiver (and security system, if so equipped) was integrated into the head unit. The dome light wire goes through the head unit as well since it is connected to the security system. The car is a 1996 Acura Integra.  I wanted to replace the factory head unit.  I heard somewhere that doing this would kill my keyless entry. I accepted this fact and went ahead with the head unit removal.  At this moment, the factory head unit is out of the car and the new one has not yet been installed.  The keyless entry still works! This seems to contradict everything I have read.  Does anyone know how it is still working?

Response:

Honda hides them all over the place.  ’99 Prelude’s is in the left side panel, about where a rear passenger’s left hip would be IF somebody actually sat there!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So where is the keyless entry receiver in the 96 Integra?

Response:

Question:

There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off. — Ignasi. ‘90 325is (using SPAM trap e-mail address)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off. — Ignasi. ‘90 325is (using SPAM trap e-mail address)

Pissed off ? Why ? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. It is currently the best looking BMW in production IMHO. A.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off. Pissed off ? Why ?

Because I care about these cars. Because the 645i (or the new 7, or 5) didn’t need to be so ugly. Because it looks like an overgrown Acura RSX with a Chrysler like trunk on it. Because it’s a dumbed down design. It’s the same feeling I get watching most TV shows or current movies. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

We’re not talking about refrigerators or toasters. I care about cars, and BMWs in particular. As an engineer I also care about engineering and design. Watching BMW screw up been doing for years bothers me. It is currently the best looking BMW in production IMHO.

You know the saying: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king… — Ignasi. ‘90 325is (using SPAM trap e-mail address)

Response:

I looked at a new one at the dealer. I thought it looked just okay with the top down. Then I saw a hardtop outside and I thought it was quite gorgeous. Don’t know how the ragtop looks when up. I hear the rear window is kind of set in and weird looking.

Response:

Because I care about these cars. Because the 645i (or the new 7, or 5) didn’t need to be so ugly. Because it looks like an overgrown Acura RSX with a Chrysler like trunk on it. Because it’s a dumbed down design. It’s the same feeling I get watching most TV shows or current movies.

I’m not sure I find the Six terribly attractive – I prefer the coupe to the cabrio – but I don’t think I can agree with you on the car being "dumbed down". There is a *lot* of design language, much of it challenging, in that car. Take a look at the aforementioned Acura RSX and count the convex and concave surfaces. *That* is a simple design. By contrast the Six has a lot of interplay between concave and convex, The trunk area alone, which pays a kind of bizarre homage to the tea-tray-spoiler 930, probably had more thought and effort in its design than the whole RSX. To me, the E36 was an example of a "dumbed-down" design. That car always struck me as utterly charmless. The front end was pinched and un-BMW-like, the section between the doors was seemingly from a different car, and the rear was a simple Kamm tail from the first-gen Scirocco. Compare the E36 and E46 and see how much more design there is in the 46 – which was Bangle’s first Bimmer. It is currently the best looking BMW in production IMHO. You know the saying: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king…

Today at lunch I saw an old 320i (E12 320i for you non-USians who kept getting a 320i after that car), with Euro bumpers and a little Kamei rear spoiler, and my heart just leapt. Now *that* was a BMW. Except it was pretty much universally reviled at the time of its introduction. Same with the E28. To me the E28 is absolutely iconic; at the time it was criticized for being a timid update of its predecessor with some "Americanized" details like the large rear taillights. The problem is that many of the details which say "BMW" to us – the forward-leaning nose, the four round headlights exposed to the mercies of aerodynamics, the squared-off roofline – no longer pass muster with the modern customer who demands stability at speed, no wind noise around the A-pillars, pedestrian-impact-friendliness, and all the rest of it. The E34 was a perfect modern Bimmer to me, and the E46 a useful update of that. The rest of the post-’89 cars haven’t done much for me.  If you want a good-looking large car, try alt.autos.jaguar. The new XJ8 is the nicest-looking sedan… I have seen since the last XJ.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because I care about these cars. Because the 645i (or the new 7, or 5) didn’t need to be so ugly. Because it looks like an overgrown Acura RSX with a Chrysler like trunk on it. Because it’s a dumbed down design. It’s the same feeling I get watching most TV shows or current movies. I’m not sure I find the Six terribly attractive – I prefer the coupe to the cabrio – but I don’t think I can agree with you on the car being "dumbed down". There is a *lot* of design language, much of it challenging, in that car. Take a look at the aforementioned Acura RSX and count the convex and concave surfaces. *That* is a simple design. By contrast the Six has a lot of interplay between concave and convex, The trunk area alone, which pays a kind of bizarre homage to the tea-tray-spoiler 930, probably had more thought and effort in its design than the whole RSX.

I’m not disputing that, quite the opposite. I find the 645’s design to be overcomplex and patchy. I don’t see a central idea throughout the car, but a collection of things, like patchwork. The old sixes are terribly simple cars and they are gorgeous. Oh, and I think the tea tray spoiler totally ruins the line of a 911/930. It is currently the best looking BMW in production IMHO. You know the saying: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king… Today at lunch I saw an old 320i (E12 320i for you non-USians who kept getting a 320i after that car), with Euro bumpers and a little Kamei rear spoiler, and my heart just leapt. Now *that* was a BMW. Except it was pretty much universally reviled at the time of its introduction.

Somthing similar happened to me a month ago with a Euro 635Csi at a Target’s parking lot. — Ignasi. ‘90 325is (using SPAM trap e-mail address)

Response:

Because I care about these cars. Because the 645i (or the new 7, or 5) didn’t need to be so ugly. Because it looks like an overgrown Acura RSX with a Chrysler like trunk on it. Because it’s a dumbed down design. It’s the same feeling I get watching most TV shows or current movies.

You think it actually looks as nice as the Acura? Hmmmmmm. — Usenet special: on cases of any filters for BMW:  http://u.bmwz.org http://www.mbz.org   |          Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Orkut:RS79   Classifieds: http://ads.mbz.org 2 X 280SE  350SLC    |    Watches list: http://watches.list.mbz.org

Response:

Today at lunch I saw an old 320i (E12 320i for you non-USians who kept getting a 320i after that car), with Euro bumpers and a little Kamei rear spoiler, and my heart just leapt. Now *that* was a BMW. Except it was pretty much universally reviled at the time of its introduction.

I think you mean E21, E12 was a 5′er. That was my first BMW (E12), sans spoiler, and I always loved it. In fact wish I would have kept it. Great mountain car. My first true BMW driving joy. In the late 80’s I also picked up an E21. Now that was a reviled car by BMW aficionados, but I really really liked that car.  Indeed I don’t understand the dislike of it, other than the lowered power and displacement for US buyers. My sole problem with that car was the front end shimmy that showed at around 120,000 miles.

Response:

I agree with that but thats becuase they are all ugly! Actually the new 3 is nice looking. The one i realy hate is the 5. i may get used to it but it doesnt have that sense of elegance anymore. it just seems like a honda freak managed to use mysterious powers to hypnotize the design team! IMHO ofcourse Imad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off. — Ignasi. ‘90 325is (using SPAM trap e-mail address) Pissed off ? Why ? If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. It is currently the best looking BMW in production IMHO. A.

Response:

Today at lunch I saw an old 320i (E12 320i for you non-USians who kept getting a 320i after that car), with Euro bumpers and a little Kamei rear spoiler, and my heart just leapt. Now *that* was a BMW. Except it was pretty much universally reviled at the time of its introduction. I think you mean E21, E12 was a 5′er.

Yes sir, you are correct, I typoed.

Response:

I drove a 645 today.  It’s very responsive in all respects.  It’s also very expensive.

Response:

There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off.

That makes at least two of us I’m sure it drives really well but it looks horrid. I reckon the factory’s biggest Sin was not making a 6 series replacement based around the E34, that would have been one heck of a car. The 8 was designed for a different market. In my area most of the folk who bought fairly new 635s moved onto new E34 5 or E32/38 7 series. — Who needs a life when you’ve got Unix?   Web  : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk – The Ultimate BMW Homepage! Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was a brand new 645i parked at work last evening when I was leaving. First I was excited by seeing it so I got closer. All I felt is that the grille is quite nice, most of the rest is blah and the rear/trunk is an abomination, especially when looked at a 3/4 view. I felt like lining it up next to a 635 Csi and an 850 Csi and in front of the whole BMW design team and start slapping them around. How can something newer be so much uglier? Is it that difficult to look at what works and not screw things up? I’m pissed off. That makes at least two of us I’m sure it drives really well but it looks horrid. I reckon the factory’s biggest Sin was not making a 6 series replacement based around the E34, that would have been one heck of a car. The 8 was designed for a different market. In my area most of the folk who bought fairly new 635s moved onto new E34 5 or E32/38 7 series.

Agreed (in spades!). An E34-based 6 would have been *gorgeous*. Might even have seen low-mid twenties mpg too! I had an ‘86 635 and moved onto an E34 as you say. I’m not planning on moving any further either. The E39s in my price range had far too many gremlins. A nice 540i touring with manual transmission next for me I think. JB

Response:

Question:

  Not that weird.  And when I asked if your sluggishness started after the timing belt job, I was concerned it was done wrong.  I imagine the car would run if the belt was off by a tooth but I think it could cause hesitation and a rough idle.  Somebody correct me if I’m wrong.  Just something you might want to verify before you go chasing shadows.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok Andrew, Did the rocking test by hand like you suggested and great news I saved 15% on my car insurance with Geico. Actually, I rocked it and it seemed perfectly fine, the engine mounts seemed rock solid. But the tho. 1. I do believe the idle and timing are set properly because I had the timing belt replaced last week and the engine seems perfectly fine driving. 2. Yup the vibrations stop when I start accelerating. Funny thing I changed out my PVC Valve and the car seemed to run alot smoother. Weird huh ? Anyhow let me know what you think. Thanks !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going with you on the exhaust – that makes total sense. Now as for idling and motor mounts – how can you tell it’s bad or not ? The idling is not so severe that it appears to be damaging the car, but I’d like my car to idle smooth as butter when I first got it. My car has 75K and been pretty well take care of maintenance wise and is completely stock. Could it possibly be a bad motor mount ? Seens a little early for that. I want my car is idling I can see my front license plate shaking along with it. So I’d like to get the car to at least idle better and get a little better throttle response. Hope you can solve this one ! Thanks for all your help everyone ! It’s a little easier to check on a manual because there’s a ‘rocking in gear’ trick you can use (you could maybe do the same thing in ‘P’ark in an auto but I would advise you to unless something goes wrong.  Anyway, it’s a good bet that if your idle is within spec 750+/- as I recall (with no access or lights on after the fan has kicked on indicated car is at operating temp) and your lic. plates/dash/etc are shaking, your front lower mount is likely gone or on it’s way.  If you park and then go under the hood and physically **pull** and **push** on the head/valve cover, you will feel and see movemement if the mounts are bad.  Also, if you have someone rev the motor in neutral a little while you look under the hood, you will see the motor **tilt** a fair bit when it’s under load. A few questions for you: Is the idle and timing set properly?? Does the shaking stop when you give the motor a little gas to get the revs up? Do cars beside you watch your hood in awe at stop lights because it shakes so bad? It isn’t uncommon for mounts to go bad at 75k – especially if the car is driven in a snowbelt area or if it has seen some ’spirited’ driving. Some folks will tell you just to either play with the air trim screw on the throttle body or tighten the throttle cable.  These are not the first places to go mucking about.  You can cause more problems than you will solve doing this (especially because your ECU uses ‘rationality’). Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, your on board diagnostics will campare results from several inputs to make sense of the situation (i.e. the fuel injectors are pulsing very fast… but the motor isn’t under load and it’s at full operating temperature… I must have a bad or failing coolant temp sensor…). What does this have to do with anything??  Nothing except that many of your ‘fears’ of a poorly running or problematic vehicle may be unfounded because they would have been picked up by your ECU because of how "smart" it is…  kind of like Decartes… "I think therefore I am"…  Older ECUs just report based on a preset value comparison… they didn’t compare results using "rationality". Anyway…  let us know what you turn up… Andrew.

Response:

its the 2 piece manifold, there’s a service bulletin on it, my gs-r did that to till I got my APEXi header. I thought it was the cat too. for 950 bucks I would just get a nice header. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I’m sort of jumping in here, but I find this very interesting. I have a ‘99 integra GSR (60Kmiles) with a rattle around 3500 RPM after the exhaust heats up (faster in warm weather, slower in cold). I actually crawled under the car with a mechanic’s stethoscope and the noise is definitely coming from the catalytic conveter. The converter is still under warranty, so I took it to the dealer today. They would not take my word for it, so I had to let the remove all of the heat shields which can cause noise but had already been replaced. The noise remained and they finally said I needed a new ‘A’ pipe which would only cost $950!!!! No matter how hard I tried, I could not get then to even consider the possibility that the converter was bad. They still have the car. I will try once more to get them to replace the converter in the morning. If I fail as expected, i will take the car back, spend around $200 for a high-flow after-market CC and replace it myself. So much for fantastic Acura reliabiity and customer satisfaction!! Hello and Thank You All for any advice anyone may have to offer. I’ve owned a 1998 Acura Integra LS w/ an automatic transmission. The car Acura Certified Pre-Owned when I purchased it from the dealer. The car is COMPLETELY STOCK with no modifications. The car has about 75K miles on it now and I’ve had the timing belt and water pump replaced (this week), the oil changes done on time, all new tires, and had a major tune up (w/a tranny flush) and all brakes replaced when I had my alignment done within the last year. My Integra has been very good to me so far and I’d like to keep it that way. Lately, I have been hearing and feelings things on my integra that have me a little concerned. I’ll do my best to describe the list of things my Integra has been doing : I hear a rattling underneath the car when it’s 1st started and when driving between 2500RPM – 4000RPM on the tach till the speed is over 30mph, when I turn the steering makes a groaning sound, and finally my Integra has been getting some of the worst mileage I have ever experienced since owning my car. I took my car to get the coolant flushed and oil changed to my local mechanic, and had him take a look at it. He said the catalytic converter  was damaged ( the honeycomb inside had broken down and was rattling inside is what he said). Now this seems unusual to me with a car with 75K on it. The car’s performance and idling has seemed lagged over the last 2 months and I had a slight hesistation while accelerating. I think it is important to point out that the exhaust tip has stained black on the bottom portion of the tip, like blackened soot. The mechanic says that the Oxygen sensor is probably still good since the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT isn’t on and just needs a new catalytic converter replaced. Funny thing is after the mechanic looked at it the rattling and shaking stopped. I would greatly appreciate any assistant or experience may have with what I’ve described above. A catalytic converter on a 1998 is extremely expensive and my exhuast is still under warranty so I’d like to not pay over $700 for something that is still covered. My dealer said if the cat is truly broken it will be replaced FREE OF CHARGE, but if that is not I’ll have to pay $92 PER HOUR for them just to look at it ! How can I tell it’s definitely the catalytic converter that is broken and not something else . Thank you very much for all your help with this issue and saving me from a $92 p/hour labor charge from the dealer…

Response:

Hi. I’m sort of jumping in here, but I find this very interesting. I have a ‘99 integra GSR (60Kmiles) with a rattle around 3500 RPM after the exhaust heats up (faster in warm weather, slower in cold). I actually crawled under the car with a mechanic’s stethoscope and the noise is definitely coming from the catalytic conveter. The converter is still under warranty, so I took it to the dealer today. They would not take my word for it, so I had to let the remove all of the heat shields which can cause noise but had already been replaced. The noise remained and they finally said I needed a new ‘A’ pipe which would only cost $950!!!! No matter how hard I tried, I could not get then to even consider the possibility that the converter was bad. They still have the car. I will try once more to get them to replace the converter in the morning. If I fail as expected, i will take the car back, spend around $200 for a high-flow after-market CC and replace it myself. So much for fantastic Acura reliabiity and customer satisfaction!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello and Thank You All for any advice anyone may have to offer. I’ve owned a 1998 Acura Integra LS w/ an automatic transmission. The car Acura Certified Pre-Owned when I purchased it from the dealer. The car is COMPLETELY STOCK with no modifications. The car has about 75K miles on it now and I’ve had the timing belt and water pump replaced (this week), the oil changes done on time, all new tires, and had a major tune up (w/a tranny flush) and all brakes replaced when I had my alignment done within the last year. My Integra has been very good to me so far and I’d like to keep it that way. Lately, I have been hearing and feelings things on my integra that have me a little concerned. I’ll do my best to describe the list of things my Integra has been doing : I hear a rattling underneath the car when it’s 1st started and when driving between 2500RPM – 4000RPM on the tach till the speed is over 30mph, when I turn the steering makes a groaning sound, and finally my Integra has been getting some of the worst mileage I have ever experienced since owning my car. I took my car to get the coolant flushed and oil changed to my local mechanic, and had him take a look at it. He said the catalytic converter  was damaged ( the honeycomb inside had broken down and was rattling inside is what he said). Now this seems unusual to me with a car with 75K on it. The car’s performance and idling has seemed lagged over the last 2 months and I had a slight hesistation while accelerating. I think it is important to point out that the exhaust tip has stained black on the bottom portion of the tip, like blackened soot. The mechanic says that the Oxygen sensor is probably still good since the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT isn’t on and just needs a new catalytic converter replaced. Funny thing is after the mechanic looked at it the rattling and shaking stopped. I would greatly appreciate any assistant or experience may have with what I’ve described above. A catalytic converter on a 1998 is extremely expensive and my exhuast is still under warranty so I’d like to not pay over $700 for something that is still covered. My dealer said if the cat is truly broken it will be replaced FREE OF CHARGE, but if that is not I’ll have to pay $92 PER HOUR for them just to look at it ! How can I tell it’s definitely the catalytic converter that is broken and not something else . Thank you very much for all your help with this issue and saving me from a $92 p/hour labor charge from the dealer…

Response:

I’m going with you on the exhaust – that makes total sense. Now as for idling and motor mounts – how can you tell it’s bad or not ? The idling is not so severe that it appears to be damaging the car, but I’d like my car to idle smooth as butter when I first got it. My car has 75K and been pretty well take care of maintenance wise and is completely stock. Could it possibly be a bad motor mount ? Seens a little early for that. I want my car is idling I can see my front license plate shaking along with it. So I’d like to get the car to at least idle better and get a little better throttle response. Hope you can solve this one ! Thanks for all your help everyone !

It’s a little easier to check on a manual because there’s a ‘rocking in gear’ trick you can use (you could maybe do the same thing in ‘P’ark in an auto but I would advise you to unless something goes wrong.  Anyway, it’s a good bet that if your idle is within spec 750+/- as I recall (with no access or lights on after the fan has kicked on indicated car is at operating temp) and your lic. plates/dash/etc are shaking, your front lower mount is likely gone or on it’s way.  If you park and then go under the hood and physically **pull** and **push** on the head/valve cover, you will feel and see movemement if the mounts are bad.  Also, if you have someone rev the motor in neutral a little while you look under the hood, you will see the motor **tilt** a fair bit when it’s under load. A few questions for you: Is the idle and timing set properly?? Does the shaking stop when you give the motor a little gas to get the revs up? Do cars beside you watch your hood in awe at stop lights because it shakes so bad? It isn’t uncommon for mounts to go bad at 75k – especially if the car is driven in a snowbelt area or if it has seen some ’spirited’ driving. Some folks will tell you just to either play with the air trim screw on the throttle body or tighten the throttle cable.  These are not the first places to go mucking about.  You can cause more problems than you will solve doing this (especially because your ECU uses ‘rationality’). Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, your on board diagnostics will campare results from several inputs to make sense of the situation (i.e. the fuel injectors are pulsing very fast… but the motor isn’t under load and it’s at full operating temperature… I must have a bad or failing coolant temp sensor…). What does this have to do with anything??  Nothing except that many of your ‘fears’ of a poorly running or problematic vehicle may be unfounded because they would have been picked up by your ECU because of how "smart" it is…  kind of like Decartes… "I think therefore I am"…  Older ECUs just report based on a preset value comparison… they didn’t compare results using "rationality". Anyway…  let us know what you turn up… Andrew.

Response:

Ok Andrew, Did the rocking test by hand like you suggested and great news I saved 15% on my car insurance with Geico. Actually, I rocked it and it seemed perfectly fine, the engine mounts seemed rock solid. But the tho. 1. I do believe the idle and timing are set properly because I had the timing belt replaced last week and the engine seems perfectly fine driving. 2. Yup the vibrations stop when I start accelerating. Funny thing I changed out my PVC Valve and the car seemed to run alot smoother. Weird huh ? Anyhow let me know what you think. Thanks ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going with you on the exhaust – that makes total sense. Now as for idling and motor mounts – how can you tell it’s bad or not ? The idling is not so severe that it appears to be damaging the car, but I’d like my car to idle smooth as butter when I first got it. My car has 75K and been pretty well take care of maintenance wise and is completely stock. Could it possibly be a bad motor mount ? Seens a little early for that. I want my car is idling I can see my front license plate shaking along with it. So I’d like to get the car to at least idle better and get a little better throttle response. Hope you can solve this one ! Thanks for all your help everyone ! It’s a little easier to check on a manual because there’s a ‘rocking in gear’ trick you can use (you could maybe do the same thing in ‘P’ark in an auto but I would advise you to unless something goes wrong.  Anyway, it’s a good bet that if your idle is within spec 750+/- as I recall (with no access or lights on after the fan has kicked on indicated car is at operating temp) and your lic. plates/dash/etc are shaking, your front lower mount is likely gone or on it’s way.  If you park and then go under the hood and physically **pull** and **push** on the head/valve cover, you will feel and see movemement if the mounts are bad.  Also, if you have someone rev the motor in neutral a little while you look under the hood, you will see the motor **tilt** a fair bit when it’s under load. A few questions for you: Is the idle and timing set properly?? Does the shaking stop when you give the motor a little gas to get the revs up? Do cars beside you watch your hood in awe at stop lights because it shakes so bad? It isn’t uncommon for mounts to go bad at 75k – especially if the car is driven in a snowbelt area or if it has seen some ’spirited’ driving. Some folks will tell you just to either play with the air trim screw on the throttle body or tighten the throttle cable.  These are not the first places to go mucking about.  You can cause more problems than you will solve doing this (especially because your ECU uses ‘rationality’). Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, your on board diagnostics will campare results from several inputs to make sense of the situation (i.e. the fuel injectors are pulsing very fast… but the motor isn’t under load and it’s at full operating temperature… I must have a bad or failing coolant temp sensor…). What does this have to do with anything??  Nothing except that many of your ‘fears’ of a poorly running or problematic vehicle may be unfounded because they would have been picked up by your ECU because of how "smart" it is…  kind of like Decartes… "I think therefore I am"…  Older ECUs just report based on a preset value comparison… they didn’t compare results using "rationality". Anyway…  let us know what you turn up… Andrew.

Response:

George, Thanks for the reply ! I appreciate your experience with this. I do live in Maryland, where it’s been getting extremely cold lately (under 20 degrees F). I took my car in for emissions testing today and passed with no problems. So I am agreeing with you that it is not the cat but that ever persisent heat shield rattle. How could one see if it was indeed a broken catalytic converter without cracking it open. A mechanic banging the cat and hearing something shake didn’t exactly boost my confidence in his diagnostic of it LOL. Does anyone think this mechanic is yanking my chain ? I’d like to avoid paying the dealer $92 p/hour just to tell me he was wrong.

I would suggest that you have someone check on top of the heat shield for pebbles or debris – this will make a **rattle** on start up, etc. I would also suggest that unless you regularly park in tall fields or piles of leaves… you remove the shield entirely.  Every car I have owned will have a problem with this damn shield at some point and it usually only gets better when it’s removed. You asked about how you can tell if a cat is bad??  You should have your ‘check engine’ light come on among other things but if not… stand behind the car facing the wind and smell for a horrendous rotten egg smell.  Unless it’s warranty work, I would avoid the gouge of the dealer unless it’s for something very specialized that you can’t get a local mechanic to handle. It’s advisable to deal with a mechanic that knows Hondas very well though…  There are a few aspects of the the design that beg specific attention (i.e. OEM power steering fluid, no slick 50, tbelt changes regularly….). There is likely nothing wrong with your Integra but it wouldn’t hurt to check to see if the ECU is throwing any codes just to be safe… Andrew.

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. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would greatly appreciate any assistant or experience may have with what I’ve described above. A catalytic converter on a 1998 is extremely expensive and my exhuast is still under warranty so I’d like to not pay over $700 for something that is still covered. My dealer said if the cat is truly broken it will be replaced FREE OF CHARGE, but if that is not I’ll have to pay $92 PER HOUR for them just to look at it ! How can I tell it’s definitely the catalytic converter that is broken and not something else . Thank you very much for all your help with this issue and saving me from a $92 p/hour labor charge from the dealer… I read some of the other posts related to this subject and it’s obvious that you have received some excellent advice. I will add my two cents–you wanted to know if you need to have your catalytic converter replaced. The answer is NO. You mentioned in one of your last posts that your vehicle just passed a pollution test. If your catalytic converter was not working correctly–your vehicle would NOT have passed the pollution test. In addition, if your engine light would come on if yur catalytic converter was not working. The other posters told you the source of the problem and I agree with them. If you can’t fix the problem, take it to a local mechanic that you trust and have him fix the problem. It’s difficult to work on items under the car unless you have a lift which is why I  depend on a local mechanic whenever I need work done under the car.

Something is completely wrong with the Health Care System in this country..   read below because it is relevant to this thread…. I am  replying to this threat because of the 92 buck an hour labor charge that the dealers charges…. especially when compared with what my surgeon was just paid….. First  of all I have been a car enthusiast all of my adult life… and I not only have one (I have 2) lifts in my garage(s). and I restore collect and drive the hell out of cars… Anyway I had surgery in December 2003…and today got the bill from the vascular surgeon who spent between 8 and 9 hours ..without a potty break or lunch etc REPARING a few of my arteries… The bill was for something like $4,500  ok ouch…but I can now walk 1 full mile and before I could not …Blue Cross reduced that charge down to $600 or so bucks and I had a co pay of close to $200….. Doing the math the surgeon was paid 800 bucks or a little more then 90 bucks an hour for his "work"….about the same as the dealer charged for the mechanic…  GIVE me a break….Either the surgeon was grossly underpaid or the dealership sure places a high price tag on the mechanics skill… . Bob Griffiths Retired not so old fart.   68 SS 396 Chevelle 61 64 72 76 & 95 Corvettes

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Thanks Bohemiam and everyone else that’s helped so far. I think you’re right it’s not the catalytic converter. The car in my opinion, seems to be letting out a lot of exhaust vapors that I can see which I thought I shouldn’t be seeing when the car warms up. Any thoughts on it?  I maybe looking in the wrong direction on this one. Any ideas on what would cause a my steering wheel to vibrate when the Integra is not in motion ? I thought maybe the exhaust had something to do with it but it looks like from what we’ve seen it doesn’t seem to be the case. I’m not sure if I am not sure if this is an issue all 4 cylinder cars have or if I am just being paranoid. I just want my car to last as long as possible. Thanks again all for all the help you’re providing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read some of the other posts related to this subject and it’s obvious that you have received some excellent advice. I will add my two cents–you wanted to know if you need to have your catalytic converter replaced. The answer is NO. You mentioned in one of your last posts that your vehicle just passed a pollution test. If your catalytic converter was not working correctly–your vehicle would NOT have passed the pollution test. In addition, if your engine light would come on if yur catalytic converter was not working. The other posters told you the source of the problem and I agree with them. If you can’t fix the problem, take it to a local mechanic that you trust and have him fix the problem. It’s difficult to work on items under the car unless you have a lift which is why I  depend on a local mechanic whenever I need work done under the car.

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Any ideas on what would cause a my steering wheel to vibrate when the Integra is not in motion ?

There is always a little bit in a FWD car. If it’s excessive, it’s usually due to low idle or worn engine mounts. Investigate cause of low idle before turning the idle speed screw. — TeGGeR

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Well, among the three types of transmission, manual, automatic and SMG, for me the choice is easy: manual!

I enjoy double-clutching on the track and while goofing around. I’ll take a manual wherever it is offered… but they are becoming less common. My 1997 Discovery (not another Land Rover comment!) had a five-speed 4.0 V8; my 2003 has a four-speed auto with a 4.6. The self-shifter is no longer available, unfortunately. IIRC the highest proportion of manual tranny cars in the US are sold by Saab, then BMW, then Volkswagen. My driving instructor says he prefers SMG for track work, but since I drive for fun and not for competitive purposes I’ll keep a stick wherever possible.

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My son-in-law just bought an M4, 2.5 w/ SMG. I had previously driven in a 3.0, & the SMG seemed to be working fine.  My Son-in-law’s 2.5 seemed to take forever in-between shifts in both auto and manual mode.  Bottom line is, it sucked. I didn’t want to rain on his parade with his brand new baby, but I think he’s got a problem. Based upon comparing his SMG to my steptronic, I’d take the Step any day. However if the SMG were up to par & shifted at least as fast as my Step’, I’d opt for the SMG (Like the 3.0 I was in). In recent driving on mountain roads with my E39, 530Ia, The tranny seemed to work as well whether I shifted it or let the auto take control.  The biggest benefit was that in manual mode with the Step, I used less brakes.

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I know that in the US almost all of the cars are automatic (unlike in Europe). So what are you American bimmers using?

I have a "conventional" 3-pedal manual gearbox. Looks like most E46 M3 drivers choose SMG, though. We just had an M3 meet in Seattle, with a total of 10 E46 M3’s. Mine was the only stick shift. Dai — Daigoro F. Toyama 2004 M3 Coupe

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Well, among the three types of transmission, manual, automatic and SMG, for me the choice is easy: manual! The manual gearbox is the one for people who actually like driving. The SMG, well, I’ve never tried it but I’ve been told by many (dealer included) that for extreme driving it’s OK but during normal operation it can be a bit less smooth, unlike the manual one. I’d think about the SMG II for the M3 maybe, if I had the money, but not for a normal E46. As for the automatic transmission, I think that’s for people who aren’t too much willing to drive ). I know that in the US almost all of the cars are automatic (unlike in Europe). So what are you American bimmers using? it’s just for my curiosity… I think that BMW is the brand with the highest percentage of manual gearboxes in the USA, except supercars manufacturers like Porsche I bet. Am I right?

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Well, among the three types of transmission, manual, automatic and SMG, for me the choice is easy: manual!

Guess what? My choice coming from manual is SMG. The manual gearbox is the one for people who actually like driving. The SMG, well, I’ve never tried it but I’ve been told by many (dealer included) that for extreme driving it’s OK but during normal operation it can be a bit less smooth, unlike the manual one. I’d think about the SMG II for the M3 maybe, if I had the money, but not for a normal E46.

Manual gearbox is fine. I drove it for 15 years and liked it (mostly E30 320i and E46 325Ci). But recently I got tired to operate the clutch in heavy traffic. Hey, maybe I’m getting old So before my lease ended, I did a thorough test drives of a 325Ci with SMG and Automatic. The Automatic was sluggish, just not enough power in the 325Ci. All the power felt with the manual was gone. It was very smooth though. Nice choice for a powerful car (at least 8cyl) but not for a 325Ci. The SMG was indeed not very smooth, especially in city driving. But on open roads in manual mode it shines like a star. One gear change down before a curve with SMG matching the revs with a heartly gas push will show you what I mean. And thats far from "extreme driving" IMHO. Since I don’t expect the smoothness of a automatic, SMG was quite a nice compromise between manual and automatic. IMHO, since you never tried it for yourself, you can’t judge it just by the telltale of others (who mostly expected a smooth automatic and didn’t compare it to manual). You have to try for yourself to decide, especially if you come from the manual side. Karl from Germany

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2000 540i 6-Speed. Been driving manual for 20 years and won’t even consider anything else.  It is my FIRST criteria used when buying a new car.  Is a manual offered? I have been driving Honda/Acura for all of those 20 years until this past August.  Acura did not make a sports sedan that came in a manual.  (I know that the TL is now available in a 6 speed, but I missed it by about a month or so.)  I went with the 5 series because it was one of the few good sports sedans offered in a stick. I haven’t tried a true SMG before, only the manu-matics available as a joke in some of the American cars.  Those have been a real turn off.  I work with someone who drives the Maseratti Cambocorsa in a SMG.  Without a true clutch though, it still seems like more of a gimmick.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, among the three types of transmission, manual, automatic and SMG, for me the choice is easy: manual! The manual gearbox is the one for people who actually like driving. The SMG, well, I’ve never tried it but I’ve been told by many (dealer included) that for extreme driving it’s OK but during normal operation it can be a bit less smooth, unlike the manual one. I’d think about the SMG II for the M3 maybe, if I had the money, but not for a normal E46. As for the automatic transmission, I think that’s for people who aren’t too much willing to drive ). I know that in the US almost all of the cars are automatic (unlike in Europe). So what are you American bimmers using? it’s just for my curiosity… I think that BMW is the brand with the highest percentage of manual gearboxes in the USA, except supercars manufacturers like Porsche I bet. Am I right?

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Well, among the three types of transmission, manual, automatic and SMG, for me the choice is easy: manual!

I last owned a manual transmission car 15 years old.  During several mornings of commuting to work I counted the number of gear shifts during the trip, and from this calculated that the number of shifts involved in commuting alone over the 4 year lease of the car would be more than 40,000. I have owned a series of cars sice then, all of them automatics! Sure, manuals can be fun on the right road under the right conditions, but this is not the reality of day to day driving for most of us.  If I could justify keeping an additional car to take on fun drives on weekends it would be a manual, but for most driving the automatic wins.  No contest.

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The SMG was indeed not very smooth, especially in city driving. But on open roads in manual mode it shines like a star. One gear change down before a curve with SMG matching the revs with a heartly gas push will show you what I mean. And thats far from "extreme driving" IMHO. Since I don’t expect the smoothness of a automatic, SMG was quite a nice compromise between manual and automatic.

 But in its current form, a poor compromise, and an unnecessary one. Other makers – Audi for one – use a twin clutch SMG type transmission which gives town speed gearchanges very nearly as good as the best ‘conventional’ auto while retaining all the advantages of the BMW SMG, except for perhaps a cost and weight penalty. I’d be very surprised if this transmission doesn’t make an appearance in later model BMWs given that BMW buy in their transmissions anyway. — *I don’t suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *      RIP Acorn  

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