Question:

: Reliability? The local scoop here is that Yamaha wins this one. : As far as reliability, I always had terrific luck with Yamaha until my : ‘87 175 shattered the #4 piston.  Threw the connecting rod right through : the block.  I know I shouldn’t judge a product by one experience, but it

As a long time outboard mechanic I tend to agree with you in that the Japanese engines do not have the alloys that we have in the US. I have worked in a  rebuild shop for a few years that only rebuilt ob powerheads. Although now I work as an independent service shop (I do not sell any brand new engines of any manufacturer) I strongly believe from experience that presently Merc has the edge on the others with thier alloys. They give a 3 year corrosion warranty. When disassembling merc blocks internally they are coated with some type of yellow chromate that still looks new after MANY years.(also I understand that merc had a hand in the newer Corvette aluminum block casting) Tthe Japanese engines,Suz,Yam, tohatsu and nissan, all seem to suffer from very many frozen bolts in the alum parts. Last summer I had one Suzuki to rebuild (v-6) with about 12 frozen fasteners that finally broke off in the block after trying all the tricks I know to remove them. The steel in thier fasteners seems to be to soft to remove the bolt after it has frozen in place. BY the way I learned my trade in the Fla. keys where saltwater frozen bolts are an everyday occurence. Omc’s engines have no internal coatings but don’t suffer the same bolt probs, probably because the bolts may be coated with some substance to prevent electrolisis.By the way Rebuilding, when done properly, is very cost effective if you know where to go. OMC powerheads go for about 3000$ from the factory, but I generally do a typical V-6 for about 1500-2000 with all NEW pistons, rings, and bearings and gaskets with a warranty. Tom Jefferson

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Reliability? The local scoop here is that Yamaha wins this one. : As far as reliability, I always had terrific luck with Yamaha until my : ‘87 175 shattered the #4 piston.  Threw the connecting rod right through : the block.  I know I shouldn’t judge a product by one experience, but it everyday occurence. Omc’s engines have no internal coatings but don’t suffer the same bolt probs, probably because the bolts may be coated with some substance to prevent electrolisis.By the way Rebuilding, when done properly, is very cost effective if you know where to go. OMC powerheads go for about 3000$ from the factory, but I generally do a typical V-6 for about 1500-2000 with all NEW pistons, rings, and bearings and gaskets with a warranty.

 I had a 1986 OMC motor that the dealer charged eight hours labor against  for separating the powerhead from the midsection to replace the  powerhead/exhaust adapter gasket when the motor was barely a year old.  He told me the reason was that all the bolts were frozen.  Funnily enough, when I rebuilt the motor two years later I had no  such problem. Don’t know if the dealer was a good guy and coated the  bolts before replacing them, or if he was a bad guy padding his bill.  Is that $3000 the dealer price? When I had my powerhead replaced under  warranty a couple of years ago I was told the replacement cost to  me would have been $4200 if it wasn’t for the warranty.(225 OMC)  $1500-2000 sounds like a good price – do you use manufacturers  replacement parts or are they aftermarket parts? What kind of  warranty do you give? — Ed Kelly

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For 1995 Model Year…. A couple of Mariner OB prices +/- 150L              $7400 150XL            $7500 150CXL          $7750  (Counter-Rot) 150Mag III     $7750 150MagEFI     $8300 150XLEFI       $8350 150CXLEFI     $8600  (Counter-Rot) All include Electric Start, Alternator, Steering Connector, Oil Injection, Low Oil Warn, Power Trim, Overheat Warn. Bare.

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BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners? No – Merc and Mariners are identical mechanically I believe, years ago Yamaha used to make the smaller Yamahas, but I don’t think they

                                      ^^^^^^^    Ooops – I meant to say Mariners, not Yamahas. — Ed Kelly

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        150hp Evinrude (Ocean Pro)          ~9700.00 (bare engine)        150hp Yamaha   (salt H20series)     ~9000.00 (w/ss prop,instruments,                                                  controls,instruments)        150hp Mercury  (offshore w/carb)      ~6500.00 (bare engine) That is a bit strange, but to me the Merc price is in line with what I have found.  I recently priced out 225 HP class OBs.  The dealer that I like to use quoted me "at cost" prices for Merc and Johnson OBs and they where virtually identical at around $9500, including controls.  Installation was where he would make his money.  I have bought lot from him so I may be getting a good break.

 That Evinrude/Johnson pirice looks way out of line. I just started  pricing motors as I thought I might repower while I can still get some  money back on my current motor. I am also looking at 225s (maybe  a Yamaha 250 if I can get a good price). So far (I have only made a few  calls) the Yamaha is running about $9800-10000, the only Evinrude  quote I got was $8980. I suspect I can get the OMC for less than  $7500 if I try really hard. I haven’t priced Mercurys (don’t really  want one, but if the price is right..), but my neighbour, who is an  OEM for them, reckoned they would be midway between OMC and Yamaha.  I have been warned that Yamaha prices may be increasing due to the  dollar/yen situation. As far as I’m concerned, you are looking at a "Ford vs. Chevy" debate. Each has its merrits and people who will swear by them (I’m a Mariner/Merc man).  (I’ll avoid hopping on a soapbox here.) I would just be knowledgable about the motor you like, and like cars, avoid buying a first year model.  There’s changes every year, but I would avoid drastic changes/improvement model years; let them work out the bugs.

 I definitely agree with that. Also be careful about buying past years,  even if they are "new in the box". kevin BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners?

 No – Merc and Mariners are identical mechanically I believe, years  ago Yamaha used to make the smaller Yamahas, but I don’t think they  do any more. — Ed Kelly

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – MC Newsgroup: rec.boats MC Organization: Harris Corp.  Melbourne FL BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners? MC No no no.  For a while, Mercury/Mariners under 40hp (I think) were MC actually Yamahas but now they’re built by who they say they are. MC I take that back, the VERY small ones might still be Yamahas – anyone MC know? Yes! Only Mercs under 8 HP are jap engines…made by Tohatsu (sp).  Some of the Mariners in the mid to late 80’s were actually Yamaha’s.  These engines were referred to as Sanchun (sp) engines because that’s the name of the Japanese town where they were built.  No Mariner today is a Yamaha. As a matter of fact, Yamaha is making it difficult for Brunswick to purchase replacement parts for these Sanchun engines.  I know for a fact that carbs are becomming extinct! Just my $.02! Certified Outboard Technician (Merc and Yamaha). Glen Pagnozzi

   Make that Merc/Mariners under SIX (6) HP are made by Tohatsu, since 1986, if not earlier. Today’s 6 is the same as the 8, and it has been available on and off since the introduction of the 12.8 cu.in. powerhead in 1986. Mariners 85 HP and over have always been made by Merc. Between ‘77 and ‘85, Yamaha made the rest, i.e. not during the "late 80’s."    Prior to 1995, the 12.8 cu.in. powerhead was also used in the 9.9 HP outboard. Oddly enough, the 12.8 engine has the exact same bore/stroke/disp. as the Suzuki products of similar rating. This is just coincidence.    See my earlier post about the relationship between Yamaha, Mercury, and Mariner. -Marcus.

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: writes:

: Of all the people I know with outboards the only 2 that have blown up : beyond repair are BOTH V-6 Yamahas. Mark here is one, another friend : with a 150 on a 20′ Grady-White center console. : : Around here the reputation of the Japanese outboards is that they are : well designed and built, but the aluminum alloys used in the Japanese : motors isn’t nearly as corrosion resistant as that used in OMC and : Merc/Mariner motors. The local wisdom is Yamaha or Suzuki are : fine in fresh water but stick with OMC or Merc/Mariner in salt. : : Dave Fortner : Dave.  I had a two year old 140 Suzuki blow up on me in 1989. : Freshwater use only.  It was absolutely the WORST outboard I ever owned : and never did work right.  It was always in the shop and the dealer was : either unable or unwilling to make it work properly and Suzuki (the : company) refused to even talk to me.  I understand they "do things : different now", but I doubt I’ll be plunking down my hard earned cash : to buy another one any time soon. I have a Suzuki 20 hp kicker, I don’t care much for the motor but I have to admit that last year when my OMC O/B caught on fire (electrical fire) 30 miles offshore, the motor started and brought us in without hesitation (kinda slow going though). The main reason I don’t like the motor is it’s had (has) an incredible amount of corrosion on the lower unit and the sun has completely taken the paint off the top of the cowling. Dave Fortner

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writes: Of all the people I know with outboards the only 2 that have blown up beyond repair are BOTH V-6 Yamahas. Mark here is one, another friend with a 150 on a 20′ Grady-White center console. Around here the reputation of the Japanese outboards is that they are well designed and built, but the aluminum alloys used in the Japanese motors isn’t nearly as corrosion resistant as that used in OMC and Merc/Mariner motors. The local wisdom is Yamaha or Suzuki are fine in fresh water but stick with OMC or Merc/Mariner in salt. Dave Fortner

Dave.  I had a two year old 140 Suzuki blow up on me in 1989. Freshwater use only.  It was absolutely the WORST outboard I ever owned and never did work right.  It was always in the shop and the dealer was either unable or unwilling to make it work properly and Suzuki (the company) refused to even talk to me.  I understand they "do things different now", but I doubt I’ll be plunking down my hard earned cash to buy another one any time soon. Jay Maze

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        Of possible interest, in 1991 I was at a Boat Show and expressed a desire for a "new" 85 horse outboard.  A dealer offered me a 1990 Yamaha 85 horse for $2,000.  Said it was just a "leftover" from last year. 1. Consider looking for "new" outboards from a previous model year…a lot cheaper since it’s not the latest and greatest.    -OR- 2. Look out for shady salespersons who try to sell you a returned lemon with little mileage as "new".         Any opinions?  Even in 1991, 2 grand for a Yamaha 85 seemed to be a pretty remarkable price.

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Reliability? The local scoop here is that Yamaha wins this one. If anyone knows of cheaper alternatives and or locations I would be grateful to hear of them… I am not averse to driving somewhere to pick one up…..

Here’s an alternative:  Go used. I just repowered my (coincidentally) Grady White 20′ Overnighter with a ‘93 200hp Yamaha Saltwater Series for $6350.  Supposedly 50 hours on the engine. As far as reliability, I always had terrific luck with Yamaha until my ‘87 175 shattered the #4 piston.  Threw the connecting rod right through the block.  I know I shouldn’t judge a product by one experience, but it shouldn’t have done that. I found my engine in the South Florida Boat trader and bought privately.   I’m sure you have something similar "up north"         Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL       "You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."

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: Reliability? The local scoop here is that Yamaha wins this one. : As far as reliability, I always had terrific luck with Yamaha until my : ‘87 175 shattered the #4 piston.  Threw the connecting rod right through : the block.  I know I shouldn’t judge a product by one experience, but it : shouldn’t have done that. : I found my engine in the South Florida Boat trader and bought privately.   : I’m sure you have something similar "up north" Of all the people I know with outboards the only 2 that have blown up beyond repair are BOTH V-6 Yamahas. Mark here is one, another friend with a 150 on a 20′ Grady-White center console. Around here the reputation of the Japanese outboards is that they are well designed and built, but the aluminum alloys used in the Japanese motors isn’t nearly as corrosion resistant as that used in OMC and Merc/Mariner motors. The local wisdom is Yamaha or Suzuki are fine in fresh water but stick with OMC or Merc/Mariner in salt. Dave Fortner

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Around here the reputation of the Japanese outboards is that they are well designed and built, but the aluminum alloys used in the Japanese motors isn’t nearly as corrosion resistant as that used in OMC and Merc/Mariner motors. The local wisdom is Yamaha or Suzuki are fine in fresh water but stick with OMC or Merc/Mariner in salt.

We’ll see how the new "Saltwater Series" holds up with this new motor… From what I hear they’re pretty bulletproof all the way around, but then they’ve only been in production since ‘93 so it hasn’t exactly had much of a trial period.         Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL       "You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."

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 MC Newsgroup: rec.boats  MC Organization: Harris Corp.  Melbourne FL BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners?

 MC No no no.  For a while, Mercury/Mariners under 40hp (I think) were  MC actually Yamahas but now they’re built by who they say they are.  MC I take that back, the VERY small ones might still be Yamahas – anyone  MC know?  Yes! Only Mercs under 8 HP are jap engines…made by Tohatsu (sp).  Some of the Mariners in the mid to late 80’s were actually Yamaha’s.  These engines were referred to as Sanchun (sp) engines because that’s the name of the Japanese town where they were built.  No Mariner today is a Yamaha. As a matter of fact, Yamaha is making it difficult for Brunswick to purchase replacement parts for these Sanchun engines.  I know for a fact that carbs are becomming extinct! Just my $.02! Certified Outboard Technician (Merc and Yamaha). Glen Pagnozzi … If God is Love, and Love is Blind, is Ray Charles God?  * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 93 — via Silver Xpress V4.01 [NR]     Glen Pagnozzi     The Leading Edge BBS                    Wurtsboro, NY (914) 888-4295

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BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners?

No no no.  For a while, Mercury/Mariners under 40hp (I think) were actually Yamahas but now they’re built by who they say they are. I take that back, the VERY small ones might still be Yamahas – anyone know?         Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL       "You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."

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Why is the merc so much cheaper? What features if any does it lack?

A lot of times it’s due to the model year.  In other words, the cheaper one may be considered a "non-current" model and therefore was sold to the dealer and a down and dirty price in order to make room in the warehouse for "current year" models.  Check with the dealers and ask them the model year and see if they are all 1995 models.  I personally couldn’t care less if it was considered a 1994 if it was that much cheaper than a ‘95 model. Jim

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           I have started a preliminary search for a new OB for my boat (Grady White overniter). At present it has an 1984 185hp Evinrude… We have always had Evinrudes and I have always been pretty happy with them… But then again brand loyalty can only run so deep considering the price differences that I have found. I was wondering if anyone can explain to me what the big differences are that could explain the cost differential.         I have found in the local New England area:         150hp Evinrude (Ocean Pro)          ~9700.00 (bare engine)         150hp Yamaha   (salt H20series)     ~9000.00 (w/ss prop,instruments,                                                  controls,instruments)         and get this         150hp Mercury  (offshore w/carb)      ~6500.00 (bare engine) Why is the merc so much cheaper? What features if any does it lack? I don’t want to start a “Ford vs Chevy” debate…..but what makes the OMC 50% ($3200.00) more expensive than a Merc?  I also noted that many of the OMC dealers I called had the exact same price… down to the dollar. The cheapest Merc price was some outfit in Long Island that has the 150 Merc for 6250.00 and $100.00 shipping. Can they differ in mileage? I have heard that a V6 is a V6 and that translates to ~12 gallons/hr no matter what. Reliability? The local scoop here is that Yamaha wins this one. If anyone knows of cheaper alternatives and or locations I would be grateful to hear of them… I am not averse to driving somewhere to pick one up…..                         Thanks,                                 -ALmus

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   150hp Evinrude (Ocean Pro)          ~9700.00 (bare engine)    150hp Yamaha   (salt H20series)     ~9000.00 (w/ss prop,instruments,                                                  controls,instruments)    150hp Mercury  (offshore w/carb)      ~6500.00 (bare engine)

That is a bit strange, but to me the Merc price is in line with what I have found.  I recently priced out 225 HP class OBs.  The dealer that I like to use quoted me "at cost" prices for Merc and Johnson OBs and they where virtually identical at around $9500, including controls.  Installation was where he would make his money.  I have bought lot from him so I may be getting a good break. As far as I’m concerned, you are looking at a "Ford vs. Chevy" debate. Each has its merrits and people who will swear by them (I’m a Mariner/Merc man).  (I’ll avoid hopping on a soapbox here.) I would just be knowledgable about the motor you like, and like cars, avoid buying a first year model.  There’s changes every year, but I would avoid drastic changes/improvement model years; let them work out the bugs. kevin BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners?

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BTW, are Yamahas still just a paint job away from Mariners?

Not any more. It’s more like Mariner is just a paint job away from Mercury. Mariner did begin as a joint venture between Merc and Yamaha, with Merc supplying the complete 85 HP and over outboards, and Yamahe supplying the rest. Rumor has it that Merc needed a way to divorce itself from the dismal reputation it had regarding saltwater corrosion resistance. At the time (1978 +/- 1, if memory serves), Yamaha hadn’t yet broken into the U.S. market, so the agreement was beneficial for both. Sometime around 1984 +/- 2, Yamaha got out of the exclusive distribution agreement with Mariner and started up their own dealer network. Mariner thereafter got all their motors from Mercury. Nowadays, Mariner is mostly a different paint job, but in the earlier stages of the all-Merc-built era, Mariner incorporated fewer of the "frills" avilable on the Mercs. Whether Mercury learned anything from working with Yamaha, I can’t say. They had probably already come a long way from the practices of the 1940s and ’50s that earned them the saltwater reputation, simply by competing with OMC. In the early days of Merc, they did most of their tesing in fresh water. The founder, E. Carl Kiekhaefer, was bound and determined to do everything different from OMC, including the choice of aluminum and steel alloys. Propshafts and driveshafts, e.g., were made from tool steel, much harder than the stainless steel used by OMC, but more susceptible to salt as well. -Marcus.

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