Question:

"Highly Annoyed Rodent of Unusual Size & Typing Ability" <zombiefreaksfromhellbo…@bushwhacked.org> wrote in message <news:Xns95A6721A3239fkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6>… <interesting and informative article> — "Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens." – William H. Beveridge, 1944 Amen.

Response:

Subject: Beyond Fallujah From: Tempest <temp…@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: alt.impeach.bush Beyond Fallujah A Year with the Iraqi Resistance by Patrick Graham http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-33.htm Early one morning in April, a Monday, an Iraqi doctor and I piled medicine for the Fallujah hospital into the back of his car. I had dyed my hair black, and a friend had made me a fake Iraqi I.D. By then, various groups around the country were holding dozens of foreign hostages; driving out of Baghdad was like slipping into a shark tank. Ahead of us on the road were convoys of trucks, carrying aid and probably weapons. Men from all the Sunni areas, I was told, were coming to Fallujah to fight, a situation that one U.S. Marine had called the Sunni "Super Bowl." Inside the city itself, the resistance had set up checkpoints every 100 feet. At the tenth checkpoint we were stopped and interrogated. A gun was put to the head of the doctor’s uncle, who had accompanied us. We had planned for this eventuality: I was to pretend to be the doctor’s mentally ill brother. For this reason I was wearing a suit. I muttered my Iraqi name to the guard. They took us to a mosque at the edge of the industrial zone, where the fighting had been the heaviest. Occasionally a bullet pinged into the asphalt. "Snipers," said the guard. In the courtyard of the mosque, armed gunmen stood around boxes of medicine. We were taken to an inner room, where a man in the white robes of a conservative Muslim cleric quizzed me. I mumbled in a way that sounded, I hoped, like the product of some sort of brain aneurysm. Upstairs in the mosque, I learned later, the resistance was holding sixteen foreign hostages. We left with a note from the imam of the mosque that asked resistance fighters to let us pass. The guards were very concerned about my health, and were angry at the doctor for having brought his sick brother to such a dangerous place. Fallujah, which sits along the Euphrates River, is a drab market town, filled with two-story apartment buildings and walled houses the color of a dust storm. Most of the streets are lined with low buildings; piles of old tires and pieces of cars sit in front of small shops. As we drove through the nearly empty streets, hundreds of fighters stood around in small groups. For a while, we followed an ambulance with a single bullet hole in its back window: a clean shot at the driver. Most families had left the city, our escort told us. We heard tanks firing, the low buzz of a circling drone, and the repetitive thud of heavy machine-gun fire. Jet fighters dropped the occasional missile. This was supposedly a cease-fire. The hospital reported that more than 600 people had already been killed, and the Marines had taken only a few neighborhoods. The Western press often had described the insurgents as supporters of Saddam, but the former dictator was clearly irrelevant. There were probably foreign fighters there, too, but in such small numbers as to be militarily insignificant. The fighters were connected to one another by clan; their only political representation was the Association of Muslim Clerics, a Sunni party that had been formed during the summer. This was a tribal uprising, controlled by religious leaders. As we left the city, a family in a car ahead of us was killed by tank fire. At the resistance lines, cars were driving like mad back into the city, honking. From open windows, passengers screamed that the American tanks were approaching. A young fighter with a Kalashnikov yelled, in reply, "Ahlan bik"

Question:

The Curse of Dick Cheney Everything he touches fails: Is Bush next? The veep’s career has been marred by one disaster after another By T.D. ALLMAN Should George W. Bush win this election, it will give him the distinction of being the first occupant of the White House to have survived naming Dick Cheney to a post in his administration. The Cheney jinx first manifested itself at the presidential level back in 1969, when Richard Nixon appointed him to his first job in the executive branch. It surfaced again in 1975, when Gerald Ford made Cheney his chief of staff and then — with Cheney’s help — lost the 1976 election. George H.W. Bush, having named Cheney secretary of defense, was defeated for re-election in 1992. The ever-canny Ronald Reagan was the only Republican president since Eisenhower who managed to serve two full terms. He is also the only one not to have appointed Dick Cheney to office. This pattern of misplaced confidence in Cheney, followed by disastrous results, runs throughout his life — from his days as a dropout at Yale to the geopolitical chaos he has helped create in Baghdad. Once you get to know his history, the cycle becomes clear: First, Cheney impresses someone rich or powerful, who causes unearned wealth and power to be conferred on him. Then, when things go wrong, he blames others and moves on to a new situation even more advantageous to himself. "Cheney’s manner and authority of voice far outstrip his true abilities," says Chas Freeman, who served under Bush’s father as ambassador to Saudi Arabia. "It was clear from the start that Bush required adult supervision — but it turns out Cheney has even worse instincts. He does not understand that when you act recklessly, your mistakes will come back and bite you on the ass." Cheney’s record of mistakes begins in 1959, when Tom Stroock, a Republican politician-businessman in Casper, Wyoming, got Cheney, then a senior at Natrona County High School, a scholarship to Yale. "Dick was the all-American boy, in the top ten percent of his class," Stroock says. "He seemed a natural." But instead of triumphing, Cheney failed. "He spent his time partying with guys who loved football but weren’t varsity quality," recalls Stephen Billings, an Episcopalian minister who roomed with him during Cheney’s freshman (and only full) year at Yale. "His idea was, you didn’t need to master the material," says his other roommate, Jacob Plotkin. "He passed one psych course without attending class or studying, and he was proud of that. But there are some things you can’t bluff, and Dick reached a point where you couldn’t recover." Cheney might have been flunking in the classroom, but he excelled at making connections. "Dick always had this very calm way of talking," recalls Plotkin, now a retired math professor at Michigan State University. "His thoughtful manner impressed people." Forty years before the son of a U.S. president picked Cheney to be his running mate, the son of a Massachusetts governor picked him to be his sophomore-year roommate. Mark Furcolo, whose father, Foster, had been elected governor as a Democrat, invited Cheney to Cape Cod for a visit. "Dick came back enraptured," Plotkin says. "He was fascinated by the official state cars and planes. The trappings of it got him." It could have been the start of a brilliant career — in the Massachusetts of the 1960s, it would not have been too great a leap from the Furcolos to the Kennedys. Instead, after only one term as a Yale sophomore, Cheney dropped out. "Dick never had the experience of learning from his mistakes," says Tom Fake, a Natrona classmate who also won a Yale scholarship. But he learned something perhaps more important to this future success. "He found a path that got him into powerful positions" is how Plotkin puts it. After leaving Yale, Cheney had one of his few experiences working in the private sector, on a telephone-company repair crew. He showed no interest, one way or another, in the Vietnam War — until a Texas president, nearly forty years before George W. Bush, turned a remote foreign struggle into a catastrophic, unwinnable war. Thanks to Lyndon Johnson’s escalation of Vietnam, lounging around was suddenly no longer an option. Cheney snapped into action. First he enrolled in Casper Community College; then he went to the University of Wyoming. That kept him out of the draft until August 7th, 1964, when Congress initiated massive conscription in the armed forces. Three weeks later, Cheney married Lynne Vincent, his high school girlfriend, earning him another deferment. Then, on October 26th, 1965, the Selective Service announced that childless married men no longer would be exempted from having to fight for their country. Nine months and two days later, the first of Cheney’s two daughters, Elizabeth, was born. All told, between 1963 and 1966, Cheney received five deferments. In January 1967, when he was enrolled at the University of Wisconsin, Cheney passed his twenty-sixth birthday, making him safe from the draft — and making it safe for him to abandon work on a doctoral degree. He had taken to hanging out with local politicians and acted as an unpaid assistant to Wisconsin’s moderate Republican governor, Warren Knowles. In 1968, he used Knowles to get a progressive Wisconsin Republican congressman named William Steiger to let him work as an intern in his office in Washington. For the first time, Cheney went to live in a city with a population of more than 200,000 people. What happened next occurred with amazing ease and speed. Having used Knowles as a steppingstone to Steiger, Cheney used Steiger as a steppingstone to a Nixon appointee named Donald Rumsfeld, then head of the Office of Economic Opportunity. "What I saw was a young fellow, intelligent, purposeful, laid-back," Rumsfeld later remembered, when asked why he’d hired Cheney. His greatest utility, then and later, was that he lapped up work that higher-ranking officials were happy to see disappear from their plates. "He would take a problem, worry it through and move things to a conclusion," Rumsfeld recalled. In 1973, while Nixon was self-destructing, Cheney, then thirty-two, got a job at the investment firm of Bradley, Woods and Company. "Dick needed to make some money," Bruce Bradley explained. "He and Lynne and their girls lived in a modest house, and he drove a used Volkswagen Beetle." Both Bradley and Cheney were Republicans, but they differed on Watergate. Bradley recognized that Nixon had violated fundamental American values; Cheney saw Watergate as a power struggle. They even debated each other, in a forum arranged for Bradley’s clients. "He claimed it was just a political ploy by the president’s enemies," says Bradley. "Cheney saw politics as a game where you never stop pushing. He said the presidency was like one of those giant medicine balls. If you get ahold of it, what you do is, you keep pushing that ball and you never let the other team push back." Nixon’s resignation opened the way for Cheney’s first truly astonishing inside move up. When Gerald Ford succeeded to the presidency, he needed experienced loyalists by his side who were untainted by the Nixon scandal, so he named Rumsfeld his chief of staff. Rumsfeld brought Cheney right along with him into the Oval Office. The period between August 1974 and November 1976, when Ford lost the election to Jimmy Carter, is essential to understanding George W. Bush’s disastrous misjudgments — and Dick Cheney’s role in them. In both cases, Cheney and Rumsfeld played the key role in turning opportunity into chaos. Ford, like Bush later, hadn’t been elected president. As he entered office, he was overshadowed by a secretary of state (Kissinger then, Powell later) who was considered incontestably his better. Ford was caught as flat-footed by the fall of Saigon in April 1975 as Bush was by the September 2001 attacks. A better president, with more astute advisers, might have arranged a more orderly ending to the long and divisive war. But instead of heeding the country’s desire for honesty and reconciliation, Rumsfeld and Cheney convinced Ford that the way to turn himself into a real president was to stir up crises in international relations while lurching to the right in domestic politics. Having turned Ford into their instrument, Rumsfeld and Cheney staged a palace coup. They pushed Ford to fire Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, tell Vice President Nelson Rockefeller to look for another job and remove Henry Kissinger from his post as national security adviser. Rumsfeld was named secretary of defense, and Cheney became chief of staff to the president. The Yale dropout and draft dodger was, at the age of thirty-four, the second-most-powerful man in the White House. As the 1976 election approached, Rumsfeld and Cheney used the immense powers they had arrogated to themselves to persuade Ford to scuttle the Salt II treaty on nuclear-arms control. The move helped Ford turn back Reagan’s challenge for the party’s nomination — but at the cost of ceding the heart of the GOP to the New Right. Then, in the presidential election, Jimmy Carter defeated Ford by 2 million votes. In his first test-drive at the wheels of power, Cheney had played a central role in the undoing of a president. Wrote right-wing columnist Robert Novak, "White House Chief of Staff Richard Cheney . . . is blamed by Ford insiders for a succession of campaign blunders." Those in the old elitist wing of the party thought the decision to dump Rockefeller was both stupid and wrong: "I think Ford lost the election because of it," one of Kissinger’s former aides says now. Ford agreed, calling it "the biggest political mistake of my life." Back in Wyoming, Cheney used his connections to skim along to yet another success. "Some fellows from Casper called me," recalls former Sen. Alan Simpson, "told me they had found this amazing young man and were going to promote him for Con-gress. They gave a … read more »

Response:

The same could be said about Dubya, also a loser. Let’s just hope that they don’t cancel each other out….. Tubeguru

The Curse of Dick Cheney Everything he touches fails: Is Bush next? The veep’s career has been marred by one disaster after another By T.D. ALLMAN Should George W. Bush win this election, it will give him the distinction of being the first occupant of the White House to have survived naming Dick Cheney to a post

in his administration. The Cheney jinx first manifested itself at the presidential level back in

1969, when Richard Nixon appointed him to his first job in the executive branch. It surfaced again

in 1975, when Gerald Ford made Cheney his chief of staff and then — with Cheney’s help — lost the

1976 election. George H.W. Bush, having named Cheney secretary of defense, was defeated for

re-election in 1992. The ever-canny Ronald Reagan was the only Republican president since

Eisenhower who managed to serve two full terms. He is also the only one not to have appointed Dick Cheney to office. This pattern of misplaced confidence in Cheney, followed by disastrous

results, runs throughout his life — from his days as a dropout at Yale to the geopolitical chaos he

has helped create in Baghdad. Once you get to know his history, the cycle becomes clear: First,

Cheney impresses someone rich or powerful, who causes unearned wealth and power to be conferred on

him. Then, when things go wrong, he blames others and moves on to a new situation even more

advantageous to himself. "Cheney’s manner and authority of voice far outstrip his true abilities,"

says Chas Freeman, who served under Bush’s father as ambassador to Saudi Arabia. "It was clear

from the start that Bush required adult supervision — but it turns out Cheney has even worse

instincts. He does not understand that when you act recklessly, your mistakes will come back and

bite you on the ass." Cheney’s record of mistakes begins in 1959, when Tom Stroock, a Republican

politician-businessman in Casper, Wyoming, got Cheney, then a senior at Natrona County High

School, a scholarship to Yale. "Dick was the all-American boy, in the top ten percent of his class,"

Stroock says. "He seemed a natural." But instead of triumphing, Cheney failed. "He spent his time

partying with guys who loved football but weren’t varsity quality," recalls Stephen Billings, an

Episcopalian minister who roomed with him during Cheney’s freshman (and only full) year at Yale.

"His idea was, you didn’t need to master the material," says his other roommate, Jacob Plotkin. "He

passed one psych course without attending class or studying, and he was proud of that. But there

are some things you can’t bluff, and Dick reached a point where you couldn’t recover." Cheney might have been flunking in the classroom, but he excelled at

making connections. "Dick always had this very calm way of talking," recalls Plotkin, now a retired math professor at Michigan State University. "His thoughtful manner impressed people." Forty

years before the son of a U.S. president picked Cheney to be his running mate, the son of a

Massachusetts governor picked him to be his sophomore-year roommate. Mark Furcolo, whose father, Foster, had been elected governor as a Democrat, invited Cheney to Cape Cod for a visit. "Dick came back enraptured," Plotkin says. "He was fascinated by the official state cars and planes.

The trappings of it got him." It could have been the start of a brilliant career — in the Massachusetts

of the 1960s, it would not have been too great a leap from the Furcolos to the Kennedys. Instead,

after only one term as a Yale sophomore, Cheney dropped out. "Dick never had the experience of

learning from his mistakes," says Tom Fake, a Natrona classmate who also won a Yale scholarship. But he learned something perhaps more important to this future success. "He found a path that got him into powerful positions" is how Plotkin puts it. After leaving Yale, Cheney had one of his few experiences working in the

private sector, on a telephone-company repair crew. He showed no interest, one way or another,

in the Vietnam War — until a Texas president, nearly forty years before George W. Bush, turned

a remote foreign struggle into a catastrophic, unwinnable war. Thanks to Lyndon Johnson’s escalation

of Vietnam, lounging around was suddenly no longer an option. Cheney snapped into action. First

he enrolled in Casper Community College; then he went to the University of Wyoming. That kept

him out of the draft until August 7th, 1964, when Congress initiated massive conscription in the

armed forces. Three weeks later, Cheney married Lynne Vincent, his high school girlfriend, earning

him another deferment. Then, on October 26th, 1965, the Selective Service announced that

childless married men no longer would be exempted from having to fight for their country. Nine months and

two days later, the first of Cheney’s two daughters, Elizabeth, was born. All told, between 1963 and

1966, Cheney received five deferments. In January 1967, when he was enrolled at the University of Wisconsin, Cheney passed his twenty-sixth birthday, making him safe from the draft — and making it

safe for him to abandon work on a doctoral degree. He had taken to hanging out with local politicians

and acted as an unpaid assistant to Wisconsin’s moderate Republican governor, Warren Knowles. In

1968, he used Knowles to get a progressive Wisconsin Republican congressman named William Steiger

to let him work as an intern in his office in Washington. For the first time, Cheney went to live in a city with a population of

more than 200,000 people. What happened next occurred with amazing ease and speed. Having used

Knowles as a steppingstone to Steiger, Cheney used Steiger as a steppingstone to a Nixon appointee named

Donald Rumsfeld, then head of the Office of Economic Opportunity. "What I saw was a young

fellow, intelligent, purposeful, laid-back," Rumsfeld later remembered, when asked why he’d

hired Cheney. His greatest utility, then and later, was that he lapped up work that higher-ranking

officials were happy to see disappear from their plates. "He would take a problem, worry it through

and move things to a conclusion," Rumsfeld recalled. In 1973, while Nixon was self-destructing, Cheney, then thirty-two, got a

job at the investment firm of Bradley, Woods and Company. "Dick needed to make some money,"

Bruce Bradley explained. "He and Lynne and their girls lived in a modest house, and he drove a used

Volkswagen Beetle." Both Bradley and Cheney were Republicans, but they differed on Watergate.

Bradley recognized that Nixon had violated fundamental American values; Cheney saw Watergate as a power struggle. They even debated each other, in a forum arranged for Bradley’s clients. "He claimed it was just a political ploy by the president’s enemies," says

Bradley. "Cheney saw politics as a game where you never stop pushing. He said the presidency

was like one of those giant medicine balls. If you get ahold of it, what you do is, you keep pushing

that ball and you never let the other team push back." Nixon’s resignation opened the way for Cheney’s first truly astonishing

inside move up. When Gerald Ford succeeded to the presidency, he needed experienced loyalists by his

side who were untainted by the Nixon scandal, so he named Rumsfeld his chief of staff. Rumsfeld

brought Cheney right along with him into the Oval Office. The period between August 1974 and November 1976, when Ford lost the

election to Jimmy Carter, is essential to understanding George W. Bush’s disastrous misjudgments — and

Dick Cheney’s role in them. In both cases, Cheney and Rumsfeld played the key role in turning

opportunity into chaos. Ford, like Bush later, hadn’t been elected president. As he entered

office, he was overshadowed by a secretary of state (Kissinger then, Powell later) who was considered

incontestably his better. Ford was caught as flat-footed by the fall of Saigon in April 1975 as Bush

was by the September 2001 attacks. A better president, with more astute advisers, might have

arranged a more orderly ending to the long and divisive war. But instead of heeding the country’s

desire for honesty and reconciliation, Rumsfeld and Cheney convinced Ford that the way to turn himself into a real president was to stir up crises in international relations while lurching

to the right in domestic politics. Having turned Ford into their instrument, Rumsfeld and Cheney staged a

palace coup. They pushed Ford to fire Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, tell Vice President

Nelson Rockefeller to look for another job and remove Henry Kissinger from his post as national

security adviser. Rumsfeld was named secretary of defense, and Cheney became chief of staff to the

president. The Yale dropout and draft dodger was, at the age of thirty-four, the second-most-powerful man in the White House. As the 1976 election approached, Rumsfeld and Cheney used the immense

powers they had arrogated to themselves to persuade Ford to scuttle the Salt II treaty on nuclear-arms

control. The move helped Ford turn back Reagan’s challenge for the party’s nomination — but at the

cost of ceding the heart of the GOP to the New Right. Then, in the presidential election, Jimmy

Carter defeated Ford by 2 million votes. In his first test-drive at the wheels of power, Cheney had played a

central role in the undoing of a president. Wrote right-wing columnist Robert Novak, "White House Chief

of Staff Richard Cheney . . . is blamed by Ford insiders for a succession of campaign blunders."

Those in the old elitist – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wing of the party thought the decision to dump

… read more »

Response:

Question:

Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications… From whatI recall, it wasn’t the aluminum per se, but the nitrate dope the aluminum was mixed into  that was horribly flammable.  Lots of airplanes painted with nitrate dope burned, until butyrate dope was developed (and universally used for the top coats).

Bingo!  Now the pieces fall into place.  Nitrates are oxidisers. Powdered Aluminum mixed with a nitrates would fall somewhere between rocket fuel and high explosive. It would have been the Aluminum that burned, and the nitrate that burned it. IIRC, much of the Hindenberg’s framework was magnesium and it DIDN’t burn. — FF

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications… From whatI recall, it wasn’t the aluminum per se, but the nitrate dope the aluminum was mixed into  that was horribly flammable.  Lots of airplanes painted with nitrate dope burned, until butyrate dope was developed (and universally used for the top coats).                         -Dana — —

Aiviation triva… Nitrate is still used as the first coat on dope treated dacron cover. This is because dacron fibers don’t have the fuzz that cotton does. There is nothing for the dope to latch on to, so we try to encapsulate the fiber is dope.   Nitrate has superior adhesion properties, hence the first coat technique. But the flamibility issue is so extream that the rest of the buildup is done with butyrate. Nitrate dope is also known as gun cotton (for good reasons). I prefer Stitts Poly Fiber. Quicker surface build, easier repairs, and NON flammible. Richard Lamb

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This was documented within the last couple years on the TV program NOVA.  The explosion was not caused by the hydrogen but rather by the skin of the Hindenburg itself igniting.  Had it been made of just about anything else, it would never have burned. Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something? It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola. BTW, there has been recent news about the developement of a catalyst that can crack the hydrogen off of ethanol.  So you can carry your spare hydrogen in the form of ethanol, rather than in a pressure cylinder, and supply it on demand both for lift and to run through fuel cells for power. Meaning no disrespect to the OP but his comments on the dragon fly implies a certain lack of understanding of buoyancy and the scales involved.  The application of a little bit of arithmetic would help to put things in perspective. Thanks for the comments. Buoyancy?  An H2 pressurized bug wing might gain a *very* small advantage over air in terms of effective weight, lift, drag, and energy cargo requirements, depending on the pressurization.  At what over pressure does H2 weigh as much as air? 8 atmospheres when cooled?  How about warmed by the sun?

A while ago I showed you how to estimate all that stuff yourself. If you want my estimate sans math the answer is that a dragon fly displaces so little air that nothing you are taling about matters. What’s left of the ethanol after you catalyze the H2 out of it?

Carbon Dioxide and Water. Could oil then be used as a storage system for H2?

What do you mean by Storage system? Could a special oil or form of carbon, perhaps Bucky tubes be used in an electrolysis cell to capture low pressure H2?

What for?  Oh, do you want to produce the hydrogen by the electolysis of water?   That doesn’t make any sense, it would be more effcient to use the electricity to do the work, rather than use it to make hydrogen then burn the hydrogen to do work. Aluminum and water will form an explosive, I gather.

News to me. Hard to light, I hear. Other explosives contain aluminum powder. Dope, a form of plastic varnish like coating, was, I believe, an ingredient in the Hindie’s paint. I think it contains cellulose, of kinescope film and fire hazard fame.

Nitrate dope (nitrocelluose) according to another poster. Remember, this blimp is semi rigid, from internal pressure tubes containing excess H2 fuel and lift gas. It could have a quick shape, even resembling a fat ray fish / body in wing design.

Not likely.  Do the arithmetic. Then again, why not telecommute?

Why not? — FF

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This was documented within the last couple years on the TV program NOVA.  The explosion was not caused by the hydrogen but rather by the skin of the Hindenburg itself igniting.  Had it been made of just about anything else, it would never have burned. Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something? It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola. BTW, there has been recent news about the developement of a catalyst that can crack the hydrogen off of ethanol.  So you can carry your spare hydrogen in the form of ethanol, rather than in a pressure cylinder, and supply it on demand both for lift and to run through fuel cells for power.

How much weight advantage is this ethanol tank / mill / catalyst, over a large moderately pressurised tank still soft enough to provide bouyancy in air, say at 5 atmospheres pressure?  What happens to lift as fuel is consumed in transit? I’m not good with math and perhaps Your Aghustness would deign to provide an estimeate? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Meaning no disrespect to the OP but his comments on the dragon fly implies a certain lack of understanding of buoyancy and the scales involved.  The application of a little bit of arithmetic would help to put things in perspective. Thanks for the comments. Buoyancy?  An H2 pressurized bug wing might gain a *very* small advantage over air in terms of effective weight, lift, drag, and energy cargo requirements, depending on the pressurization.  At what over pressure does H2 weigh as much as air? 8 atmospheres when cooled?  How about warmed by the sun? A while ago I showed you how to estimate all that stuff yourself.

No, you didn’t, you puked up about 50 pounds of pearls before a mere pigheaded wonderer.  Is this how you would teach your son? If you want my estimate sans math the answer is that a dragon fly displaces so little air that nothing you are taling about matters.

If you played drums, you would know just how important a little tiny advantage like removing your wrist watch makes if you are playing for very long.  It sounds like a tiny difference, but I can tell you it does make a difference.  As an engineer you may think it insignificant, but as a runner, you might appreciate saving a few grams, far less than one percent of the weight of your leg and foot, by choosing a lighter sneaker.  In a few miles you might see a decided advantage, however tiny, accumulate to winning a race.  In evolution, a tiny advantage could become huge in it’s result, especially over time.  It’s not a major point, but illuminates how narrow minded some can be. Rocket science is easier. What’s left of the ethanol after you catalyze the H2 out of it? Carbon Dioxide and Water. Could oil then be used as a storage system for H2? What do you mean by Storage system?

Anything that will receive and deliver enrgy can be considered a battery, or storage system.  I like to consider hydrogen as a medium for battery storage, accepting charge from it’s rest state as a component in water during hydrolysis, delivering energy IN DIFFERENT FORMS OF ANALYSIS, like comparing powered conventional flight energy requirements to the lift provided by bouyant systems, considering weight, distance, and speed. As odd as it may seem, humanity probably accomplished more exploration under paddle and sail than ever by rocket, compared on a cost per customer mile satisfaction basis. Not everybody wants an air race competitor, but just a quiet cruise for sport. Hydrogen flight can be safe. Could a special oil or form of carbon, perhaps Bucky tubes be used in an electrolysis cell to capture low pressure H2? What for?  Oh, do you want to produce the hydrogen by the electolysis of water?   That doesn’t make any sense, it would be more effcient to use the electricity to do the work, rather than use it to make hydrogen then burn the hydrogen to do work.

Even in terms of weight,lift, drag, and fuel cost in short cruising flights? Not everyone is a speed freak. snip Remember, this blimp is semi rigid, from internal pressure tubes containing excess H2 fuel and lift gas. It could have a quick shape, even resembling a fat ray fish / body in wing design. Not likely.  Do the arithmetic.

Relatively fast shape, then?, birdlike, body in wing, propelled and steered mainly by orthinopter principles and bouyancy bladder? Please do me the courtesy of neglecting high windage difficulties. It goes beyond mere deprecatory reference to arithmatic.  It is serious math, not my forte. Terry K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Then again, why not telecommute? Why not?

Response:

There is in fact an inflatable aircraft already out there, I forget what it is called. It sure looks weird though. I’m not sure , but I have a pretty strong feeling that lighter than air craft come under their own riles and regulations, and thus do not conform to the same as ultralight and/or the soon to be ratified american LSA regs. Only 5 gallons of fuel??? wow I don’t think there is any such fuel restriction here in AU. If it DID fall under the ultralight rulings, it would have to be weighed with it’s full loading, that means, inflated, with full fuel and gas, YOU and a passenger (or a ballast bag if you cannot find anyone brave enough) if to are 2 seat capable. An insect’s wings may well be supported by positive pressure cells, but I doubt that it is hydrogen.

Me too, actually. Moller’s skycar is a concept that has been around for well in excess of ten years, (well that’s about when I first encountered the idea). At the current aceleration of today’s society, I woul;d not be at all surprised if an idea like this is soon to be put to use. maybe not at skyscraper level, but to deal with congeston levels on the ground, they are going to have to look at moving in 3 dimensions. A scary thought for those of us up there now, Imagine getting caught up withg a drunken driver at 1000ft? This is the reason for the autopilot, to take the human factor out as much as possible. You cannot expect the ordinary joe, tired, in a hurry and pissed off at the world to be considered safe to fly

Oh, no?  Says who, you an airline hostess? Next, you’ll disallow surface drivers over 4 hours a day. , so in order for the system to work, it HAS to he a push button piece of equipment, at least within city boundaries. This same autopilotiing system could very easily and capably deal with the effects of wind turbulence easier, quicker and more efficiently than a human pilot can. The immensly successful F16 is a prime example of an unstable platform made safe by computer systems. A dirigible would be practical, but not for the high speed nature of city life.

You mean like rush hour, cabs full, busses stuck in traffic too? High speed planes between skyscrapers?  Better they weigh almost nothing. A computer guidance system?  Why not, with modern AI? Even a slow dirigible would outpace direct travel by ground roads with pedestrians, etc. Close in, a human hand must always be able to do, especially if the digibrain farts. Out in the country, otto flies straight and steady, while you eat dinner enroute skiing. So, it’s a little slower than a GTX. Superior commuting.   As for the safety, yes, anti static materials would help prevent a hindenburg type disaster, but a stray bullet from you local gangsta, a bird strike, someone throwing a cig butt out the window or just a plain old crash (remember eveyone’s got one of these) could certainly create a HUGE explosion risk.

No explosion, only a rising fireball that quickly goes out. The means of using differential pressure to compensate for ballast would indeed work, under water. Not in air I’m afraid.

Same, same.  The pump would need to be as strong as if it was driving an elevator in a building (for one person, naked and slowly going up  or down).  It could burn some H2 to run the prop to pull the gasbag down, using the hot exhaust gas to heat the bag and rise, while casting off water ballast in the exhaust. Take your pick of controllable elements. The need as I see is for about a 1 HP fan motor with the capability of running a propellor fan or a gaseous H2 pump. It would be fed by flex pipes, and would steer up and down and side to side in gimbals.   A small steerable tail fan driven by exhaust gas turbine pressure might help with trim or steering.   Because of the differing densities of the medium, in order for a gaseous substance (in this case H2) do become densely concentrated enough to have a significant effect on bouyancy, you would need to compress it to such a stage that a heavy pressure vessel will be required to hold it, and to do it at any speed even closely resembling the rate required to effect altitude control, you would need a fairly massive ram to compress it with.

Oh, I don’t know… A heavy bellows with snowshoe style squeezers might not do, 2 or 3 big sausages with sliding sections and a bunch of strings pulled by a pedal gear drive might do, one fore, one aft, spanwise, but a fan strong enough to blow gas between two balloons, one stretchy, one not, wouldn’t be such a big deal, either.  The "pump" could surpass the efficiency of an elevator motor in a building, considering the mechanics. Going up would be the easy part.  We don’t have to raise and lower a cage, in effect, only need to trim the weight (displacement?) of the craft by a few pounds to start it going up or down. High vertical velocity shouldn’t occur in a guided balloon. Once set for neutral bouyancy, a small force is all that would be required. Automatic altitude control isn’t difficult with a little patience.  Sensing barometric ambient pressure would be more of a problem.  It could be broadcast by radio. A laser or gps altimiter / rangefinder might be of use. Park the whale on your tennis court by hooking a baseball on a string into a rake with entry guides and a windsock rotator, hook on the seat anchor, step off the now straining up balloon. Suck all the gas up, roll the bag up, and throw it in your pickup. Sport flying, an experimental rig, fun for everyone! The large spine tank would be not very heavy, and might resemble a canoe on a volkswagen, with van fuel inside. Why not? It would lift stuff essentially for free, fuel wise. It could do for lumbering, or picnicing. Sail cloth, mylar film, and string.  It works for the rose bowl and other parades, except they must use helium, controlled by the US government.  Why would they not want easy flight for everyone? Perhaps Hitler might not want the public free to fly anywhere, perhaps the US colluded with him to stage the Hindenburg disaster, as a matter beneficial to both regimes and then current airial manufacturers? More conspiracy madness?  I think, er, ah, not sure, really… In the event of a power loss you could just bleed gas to desend.

Or pump it with pedals? If you squeese the heavy sausage inside the lighter outer gas bag, don’t you also reduce the volume of the outer lift bag? I really does work for fishes, and should for big smart birds like us. as for effecting the infrastracture by removing the public transport equation from the highways,

Consider not building only the part we might otherwise need for future expansion.  Remember the big dig in Boston? It’s really about sewage, isn’t it? You don’t hear about the cost of cleaning up the harbour, do you?  Corporations polluted it, so now the public must pay for their abuse, by building roads better for business? Whatta ya mean, reduce *their* taxes? I doubt that would have much effect, as there is still plenty of stuff that is cheaper to freight by road, and hey, flying is not for everyone

If it was cheap, easy, quiet, and more efficient than present methods, why not? If it could be as much fun as bumper cars, and as safe, why not? No road gas tax for homegrown H2. Tether your dirigible to your chimney? Landing platform on the roof? Just my two cents…

How about 75% of gasoline cost is taxes overall? -Terry K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sarah In Oz How about making an ultralight hybrid aircraft / dirigible inflated with hydrogen?  Would you weight it empty (deflated) for weight restrictions if it was aircraft like? Would the 5 gallon gasoline fuel restriction for ultralights convert in any useful way into a volume of gaseous hydrogen equivalent? A dragonfly’s wings are stiffened by internal gas pressure, that’s obvious if you look at one. So are other insect wings, and they are the most efficient flyers there is. Are they inflated with hydrogen? That would seem like an advantageous evolution. Now, I can’t wait to capture one and see if the wing burns especially brightly. After watching the Discovery channel about Moller’s skycar, I can’t help wondering if an anti static hydrogen dirigible using fat wings shaped for lift would be more a conventional a/c or a dirigible. Seems a dirigible would make a far more practical aircar than a million dollar 8 engine robot flyer, at least for relatively short commutes to downtown from a suburb without roads, that would make housing developments cheaper.  Besides, who is going to do a hundred miles an hour between skyscrapers in traffic on auto pilot, with the way winds flip around near them? I believe Moller’s idea is doomed, a millionaire’s pipe dream. Totally impractical and inefficient in a hydrogen powered world. If a dirigible had a hydrogen bouyancy compensating tank of variable but still relatively low pressure and volume inside a lower pressure bouyancy envelope, would pumping hydrogen gas between high and low pressure envelopes control lift and gross altitude in an efficient and effective manner, like some fish do, without needing inefficient ballast? What would happen if you lost power and coudn’t compress lift gas, and continued to rise out of control as the gas in the envelope expanded at increasing altitude?  Would you need to dump H2 to come down, until you lost the capability to maintain altitude? Parachute time? Wouldn’t a dirigible inherently display good fuel efficiency, considering it doesn’t need to utilise power to generate lift, but perhaps only a little to fine control altitude for landing, etc? How good is the lift drag speed fuel

… read more »

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Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications…

From whatI recall, it wasn’t the aluminum per se, but the nitrate dope the aluminum was mixed into  that was horribly flammable.  Lots of airplanes painted with nitrate dope burned, until butyrate dope was developed (and universally used for the top coats).                         -Dana — — If replying by email, please make the obvious changes.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This was documented within the last couple years on the TV program NOVA.  The explosion was not caused by the hydrogen but rather by the skin of the Hindenburg itself igniting.  Had it been made of just about anything else, it would never have burned. Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something? It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola. BTW, there has been recent news about the developement of a catalyst that can crack the hydrogen off of ethanol.  So you can carry your spare hydrogen in the form of ethanol, rather than in a pressure cylinder, and supply it on demand both for lift and to run through fuel cells for power. Meaning no disrespect to the OP but his comments on the dragon fly implies a certain lack of understanding of buoyancy and the scales involved.  The application of a little bit of arithmetic would help to put things in perspective.

Thanks for the comments. Buoyancy?  An H2 pressurized bug wing might gain a *very* small advantage over air in terms of effective weight, lift, drag, and energy cargo requirements, depending on the pressurization.  At what over pressure does H2 weigh as much as air? 8 atmospheres when cooled?  How about warmed by the sun? I was really just wondering if evolution had any chance to find an advantage that small.  It is a remarkable process.  You agree an inflated chamber could be used as pre-stress and stiffen spars in a wing? How much over pressure and overweight might be used to stiffen a spar using air? How much structural weight might be saved using air pressure over a regular spar?  ….. is that enough perspective? What’s left of the ethanol after you catalyze the H2 out of it? Charcoal smoke / clinkers? Sludge? Oil? Could oil then be used as a storage system for H2? Could a special oil or form of carbon, perhaps Bucky tubes be used in an electrolysis cell to capture low pressure H2? Aluminum and water will form an explosive, I gather. Hard to light, I hear. Other explosives contain aluminum powder. Dope, a form of plastic varnish like coating, was, I believe, an ingredient in the Hindie’s paint. I think it contains cellulose, of kinescope film and fire hazard fame. It was commonly employed on a/c wing fabric, as it shrank as it dried, providing a tight, clean airfoil surface. The Hindie’s paint’s flammability was demonstrated on TV. Almost explosive. Have you any idea how big a charge accumulates on a moving aircraft? If a section of envelope was not well bonded, after hurried repairs with needles and thread, as was apparently the scenario, from the movie, the arc of the grounding cable could spark elsewhere on the craft. If personal air travel is to come downtown in quantity, there would have to be noise abatement regulations.  Can you imagine a thousand heli-cars throbbing and screaming over crowded streets? Dirigibles can be very quiet, especially with larger, slow moving props, even orthinopter oar / wing tips.  How fast could you row a blimp? Remember, this blimp is semi rigid, from internal pressure tubes containing excess H2 fuel and lift gas. It could have a quick shape, even resembling a fat ray fish / body in wing design. It could be very light indeed, needing only enough lift skin / envelope strength to survive a collision with a bird. As a powered ram air parachute with a little lift from H2 chambers, perhaps human powered flight might become a lot easier, if not chainsaw engine driven?  I want a cheap flying lawn chair. Burning airships send flames up, not down on pedestrians. All a/c are vulnerable to aggressive ground tactics, or even from bricks dropped from above.  Why did someone worry so much about a flare gun or something? Worry about idiots throwing rocks at bicyclists, too? Murder is murder. I can see tall buildings with lots of balcony parking for tethered blimps, even in regular modified window openings, kinda like diving boards with tethers. An executive mode of travel? Imagine a place like Vancouver.  You could blimp around traffic, and could fly direct to a mountain lake perch with no roads only a few miles away. What a vehicle for the traffic guy! Lots cheaper than a chopper. Open a valve to go up, crank a pedal to compress a little gas, go down. Once trimmed to your weight, small buoyancy changes would make altitude adjustments free. Or, a small steerable engine could be an option.  It would have to work harder to pull you down, as fuel was consumed, it it burned gasoline. Cold, precipitation and atmospheric pressure changes would complicate things, let alone a breeze. Then again, why not telecommute? Terry K

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Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something? IIRC, that’s exactly what they demonstrated.  They took a swatch sample of unburned skin paint from the Hindenburg and exposed it to a normal static discharge from typical near thunderstorm weather.  It burned very rapidly.  

Aluminum burns like hell (literally) once it is ignited (Remember the Sheffield?) but it takes a lot of energy to ignite it. Helium filled dirigibles like the Macon ALSO used aluminum pigmented paint as do a lot of stick and rag aircraft so I wonder if there was something else in the paint on the Hindeberg not found on others. It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola. That’s what the NOVA program pointed out.  Had the outer skin not been made from that highly flammable aluminum based paint, the hydrogen would have escaped above the blimp and would not have had the combustive force observed in the original disaster.  Worst case scenario would have been that the escaping gas could have burned in a nearly invisible blue flame, and later extinguished itself.

Just for fun I tried the aluminum and sodium hydroxide process to generate some hydrogen which I trapped in a lightweight produce bag. Then I lit it with a candle and the flame that burned the hairs off the back of my hand was quite yellow in color, not blue. Quite warm too.   — FF

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The means of using differential pressure to compensate for ballast would indeed work, under water. Not in air I’m afraid Blimps sych as the Goodyear do use such a pressure mechanism, IIRC.

In fact, it would work MUCH better in air than underwater.  However it is far more practical to rely on differential VOLUME, which is exactly what submarines do, and also I suspect, what Blimps do too. — FF

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This was documented within the last couple years on the TV program NOVA.  The explosion was not caused by the hydrogen but rather by the skin of the Hindenburg itself igniting.  Had it been made of just about anything else, it would never have burned.

Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something? It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola. BTW, there has been recent news about the developement of a catalyst that can crack the hydrogen off of ethanol.  So you can carry your spare hydrogen in the form of ethanol, rather than in a pressure cylinder, and supply it on demand both for lift and to run through fuel cells for power. Meaning no disrespect to the OP but his comments on the dragon fly implies a certain lack of understanding of buoyancy and the scales involved.  The application of a little bit of arithmetic would help to put things in perspective. — FF

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Did they identify the ignition source?  I have a hard time believing that a static discharge less energetic than a lightnig bolt ignited the paint.  Powdered aluminum pigment was, and still is used in lots of applications and few others have burned up like the Hindenberg. Did an unstable hydride form in the paint or something?

IIRC, that’s exactly what they demonstrated.  They took a swatch sample of unburned skin paint from the Hindenburg and exposed it to a normal static discharge from typical near thunderstorm weather.  It burned very rapidly.   You’d be amazed just how much static charge can be released from a wind across a conductive surface.  I speak from the personal experience of having flown kite-supported short-wave antennas in bright and sunny weather.   It is clear that the Hindenberg’s hydrogen did burn (not that you said it didn’t), but also clear that it had to escape from the gas bags befor it burned as the atmosphere in the gas bags was well above the Upper Explosive Limit.   Further, hydrogen diffuses rapidly.  A small leak would not cause an explosive atmosphere to form in the Gondola.

That’s what the NOVA program pointed out.  Had the outer skin not been made from that highly flammable aluminum based paint, the hydrogen would have escaped above the blimp and would not have had the combustive force observed in the original disaster.  Worst case scenario would have been that the escaping gas could have burned in a nearly invisible blue flame, and later extinguished itself. Jake Brodsky "Never mind the Turing Test, what about the Turing Graduates?"

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Moller’s skycar is a concept that has been around for well in excess of ten years, (well that’s about when I first encountered the idea). More than 15, actually.  And it will be more than 4 yet before the craft is actually approved.

Actually, I remember Moller from the late 1970’s.  There is widespread belief that his aircars will *never* fly.  Some believe his claims for engine performance are thermodynamically ridiculous.   hindenburg type disaster, but a stray bullet from you local gangsta, a bird strike, someone throwing a cig butt out the window or just a plain old crash (remember eveyone’s got one of these) could certainly create a HUGE explosion risk. There would be no Hindenburg danger if you used helium in place of H2.  The Germans used H2 only because they could not buy helium.

In fact, there would never have been a Hindenburg disaster if those silly folks at the Graf Zeppelin factory hadn’t been looking for an aluminum based paint for the envelope.  It turns out that they accidentally stumbled upon a formula for an explosive.   This was documented within the last couple years on the TV program NOVA.  The explosion was not caused by the hydrogen but rather by the skin of the Hindenburg itself igniting.  Had it been made of just about anything else, it would never have burned. Jake Brodsky "Never mind the Turing Test, what about the Turing Graduates?"

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… Well, maybe we’d all be better off taking the bus from the fly-in park. Else, we might see skyscrapers looking like flowers with a crowd of airships tethered to the hitching rails around the roof top, waving in the wind like a tall tree? Do you really think Moller’s skycars are going to make his hypothetical future better than that by some alchemy?

I never heard of Moller’s skycars befor now. Just what the hell do all those people in all those 50 th floor offices actually do? With computers, surely all clerical duties can be handled by robot telephone servers and email cheques?

I’m sure that quit q bit more work could easily be done by telecomuting. Would you be allowed to wiegh the craft while full of ‘fuel’ gas and how would that affect fuel quantity allowance? You lost me. There was a discussion about U/L weight restrictions, and it occurred to me that a hydrogen fuel bag possesses ‘negative weight.’ Do U/L regs presently make any allowance for fuel other than gasoline?  How would the regulation apply to an U/L A/C with a large H2 fuel bag?

I expect the FAA has seperate regulations for lighter than air vehicles. Even the largest dirigibles were ‘ultralight’ in that sense. So far as U/L construction is concerned, I wondered about the construction technique used by that most admirable of nature’s flyers, the dragonfly.  Like all insects, it’s wing is constructed using stretched membranes inflated with a gas to assist in maintaining it’s shape. I wondered, and still do, if dragonflys or any other insects had evolved a method to use hydrogen to inflate it’s wings. It just seems so attractive, so beneficial that I would expect it to occur in nature, if it is possible.

I don’t see what benefit there would be for insects.  Do the arithmetic and you’ll see why.   OTOH, fish have swim bladders.   For a fanciful tale about lighter-than-air beings, see a chapter in _Venus on the Half Shell_ by Kilgore Trout. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or would there need to be a seperate regulation to cover airship hybrids? Maybe it would be covered under ‘experimental’. I also thought about using a low pressure fuel tank in a lightweight car the size of a tractor trailer instead of a heavy strong hydride tank.  If you had a large H2 fuel bag, it would generate bouyancy.  If you wanted to carry enough low pressure H2 fuel for long range, might it make sense to lose the heavy wheels, frame and other heavy stuff, …

A group recently announced the developement of a new catalyst that will crack ethanol and water into hydrogen, and carbon dioxide. Their process will allow the production of hydrogen on demand from ethanol made from biomass.   The hydrogen can be used in a fuel cell to make electricity.  The biomass used to make the ethanol will recature the carbon dioxide.  Try a web search for ethanol, catalyst, and hydrogen.   In my childhood I read an anthology of short (fictional) stories about a group of kids in a small town somewhere who entertained themselves by making neat contraptions.  One story was called "The Great Balloon Race" or some such and instead of ahot air balloon with ballast they used a helium balloon and carried a gas powered compressor up with them.  To go up, they let gas out of the bottle into the balloon.  To go down, the compressed helium and put it back in the bottle. That is about the same consideration as my previous question, below. I would like to see that anthology.

I think it was called _The Monster of such and such Lake_ or some such. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much bouyancy would you ‘lose’ if you pumped say, half of the gas in the lift bag into a 10 atmosphere bag?  At what pressure does H2 weigh the same as stp atmosphere? Hydrogen at stp wieghs about what, about .2 of air? You might want to check a freshman physics text to see if my memory is accurate below. For P = pressure, V = Volume, T = absolute temperature, n = number of molecules, N = number of moles, M = molecular weight, and R = universal gas constant, A = avogodro’s number (6.022E23), m is mass and k is a constant. Avogdro’s law:  Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have equal numbers of molecules. Boyle’ law:  PV = k at constant temperature Charles law: V2 = V1(T2 – T1) at constant pressure                               (1,2 are subscripts, not factors) The ideal gas law: PV = NRT = nkT where k = N/A                or: PV = mrT, where r = R/M, so r is a different                constant for each gas. Light gases within the temperature and pressure ranges of this discussion are very well modeled by these equations.  Using them, you can answer all your questions.  As a fun exercise, you can prove that water vapor is lighter than air. Have fun.   It’s a gas.

– FF

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There is in fact an inflatable aircraft already out there, I forget what it is called. It sure looks weird though.

It’s not in production.  It was a US military project that was abandoned about forty years ago.  It was never named, but was in Kitplanes a few years back. Moller’s skycar is a concept that has been around for well in excess of ten years, (well that’s about when I first encountered the idea).

More than 15, actually.  And it will be more than 4 yet before the craft is actually approved. At the current aceleration of today’s society, I woul;d not be at all surprised if an idea like this is soon to be put to use.

If it was ever going to happen, 11 September, and the rising cost of fuel are quite likely to stop it (lamentably). A dirigible would be practical, but not for the high speed nature of city life.

Dirigibles are too *big* for practical commuting.  Consider the size of the Goodyear gasbag in relation to its crew cabin. hindenburg type disaster, but a stray bullet from you local gangsta, a bird strike, someone throwing a cig butt out the window or just a plain old crash (remember eveyone’s got one of these) could certainly create a HUGE explosion risk.

There would be no Hindenburg danger if you used helium in place of H2.  The Germans used H2 only because they could not buy helium. The means of using differential pressure to compensate for ballast would indeed work, under water. Not in air I’m afraid

Blimps sych as the Goodyear do use such a pressure mechanism, IIRC.

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There is in fact an inflatable aircraft already out there, I forget what it is called. It sure looks weird though. I’m not sure , but I have a pretty strong feeling that lighter than air craft come under their own riles and regulations, and thus do not conform to the same as ultralight and/or the soon to be ratified american LSA regs. Only 5 gallons of fuel??? wow I don’t think there is any such fuel restriction here in AU. If it DID fall under the ultralight rulings, it would have to be weighed with it’s full loading, that means, inflated, with full fuel and gas, YOU and a passenger (or a ballast bag if you cannot find anyone brave enough) if to are 2 seat capable. An insect’s wings may well be supported by positive pressure cells, but I doubt that it is hydrogen. Moller’s skycar is a concept that has been around for well in excess of ten years, (well that’s about when I first encountered the idea). At the current aceleration of today’s society, I woul;d not be at all surprised if an idea like this is soon to be put to use. maybe not at skyscraper level, but to deal with congeston levels on the ground, they are going to have to look at moving in 3 dimensions. A scary thought for those of us up there now, Imagine getting caught up withg a drunken driver at 1000ft? This is the reason for the autopilot, to take the human factor out as much as possible. You cannot expect the ordinary joe, tired, in a hurry and pissed off at the world to be considered safe to fly, so in order for the system to work, it HAS to he a push button piece of equipment, at least within city boundaries. This same autopilotiing system could very easily and capably deal with the effects of wind turbulence easier, quicker and more efficiently than a human pilot can. The immensly successful F16 is a prime example of an unstable platform made safe by computer systems. A dirigible would be practical, but not for the high speed nature of city life. As for the safety, yes, anti static materials would help prevent a hindenburg type disaster, but a stray bullet from you local gangsta, a bird strike, someone throwing a cig butt out the window or just a plain old crash (remember eveyone’s got one of these) could certainly create a HUGE explosion risk. The means of using differential pressure to compensate for ballast would indeed work, under water. Not in air I’m afraid. Because of the differing densities of the medium, in order for a gaseous substance (in this case H2) do become densely concentrated enough to have a significant effect on bouyancy, you would need to compress it to such a stage that a heavy pressure vessel will be required to hold it, and to do it at any speed even closely resembling the rate required to effect altitude control, you would need a fairly massive ram to compress it with. In the event of a power loss you could just bleed gas to desend. as for effecting the infrastracture by removing the public transport equation from the highways, I doubt that would have much effect, as there is still plenty of stuff that is cheaper to freight by road, and hey, flying is not for everyone Just my two cents… Sarah In Oz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about making an ultralight hybrid aircraft / dirigible inflated with hydrogen?  Would you weight it empty (deflated) for weight restrictions if it was aircraft like? Would the 5 gallon gasoline fuel restriction for ultralights convert in any useful way into a volume of gaseous hydrogen equivalent? A dragonfly’s wings are stiffened by internal gas pressure, that’s obvious if you look at one. So are other insect wings, and they are the most efficient flyers there is. Are they inflated with hydrogen? That would seem like an advantageous evolution. Now, I can’t wait to capture one and see if the wing burns especially brightly. After watching the Discovery channel about Moller’s skycar, I can’t help wondering if an anti static hydrogen dirigible using fat wings shaped for lift would be more a conventional a/c or a dirigible. Seems a dirigible would make a far more practical aircar than a million dollar 8 engine robot flyer, at least for relatively short commutes to downtown from a suburb without roads, that would make housing developments cheaper.  Besides, who is going to do a hundred miles an hour between skyscrapers in traffic on auto pilot, with the way winds flip around near them? I believe Moller’s idea is doomed, a millionaire’s pipe dream. Totally impractical and inefficient in a hydrogen powered world. If a dirigible had a hydrogen bouyancy compensating tank of variable but still relatively low pressure and volume inside a lower pressure bouyancy envelope, would pumping hydrogen gas between high and low pressure envelopes control lift and gross altitude in an efficient and effective manner, like some fish do, without needing inefficient ballast? What would happen if you lost power and coudn’t compress lift gas, and continued to rise out of control as the gas in the envelope expanded at increasing altitude?  Would you need to dump H2 to come down, until you lost the capability to maintain altitude? Parachute time? Wouldn’t a dirigible inherently display good fuel efficiency, considering it doesn’t need to utilise power to generate lift, but perhaps only a little to fine control altitude for landing, etc? How good is the lift drag speed fuel economy tradeoff for a dirigible at useful speeds? How much could you gain or lose to headwinds and tailwinds? Why don’t we hear more about personal dirigibles fuelled and / or lifted by hydrogen, especially since modern anti static materials would seem to remove the Hindenburg terror factor? If the vectored propellors used to drive and control a dirigible were perhaps partly powered by thin film solar cells, hydrogen fuel cells, or hydrogen or gasoline internal combustion engines in various configurations, might there be a capability to build an affordable, quiet, backyard vtol vehicle, fuelled with H2 generated by home electrolysis? A hydrogen powered dirigible "car" doesn’t need expensive infrastructure like roads or bridges. How would that affect the national economy, considering fuel scarcities, especially if roads were abandoned? Is the box too small to think about this? Is there any comprehensive research on this? It seems a one or two person H2 dirigible might only be about as big as a bus, and it could be tethered to your rooftop. The fuel could be hydrolized from waste water during low hydro demand hours, or while the sun shone on solar shingles. Opinions? Don’t bother telling me I’m crazy, I suspected that decades ago, after talking to many of the sane dullards I meet. Most just need a consuming interest to become as crazy as me. Terry K

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or a small lawn chair with a lawn mower engine twirling a prop for short range fun? http://tlc.ousd.k12.ca.us/~acody/larry.html   On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used? To a trapline, of course.  Clothesline pullies with a balloon at the top, and several others on tethers.  Just reel in the one you want, get in, and go.  You would need to pull the thing down to get in it,  unless the bouyancy compensator bladder could be pumped up and down quickly enough.   Cool, until you get high winds which are commonplace on top of skyscrapers.  The Bernouli effect can make the wind over the top of a skyscraper much faster than ‘ambient’.

Well, maybe we’d all be better off taking the bus from the fly-in park. Else, we might see skyscrapers looking like flowers with a crowd of airships tethered to the hitching rails around the roof top, waving in the wind like a tall tree? Do you really think Moller’s skycars are going to make his hypothetical future better than that by some alchemy? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Perhaps dirigible was not the right word, as I envision an ultralight soft bladder held in shape by internal webs and pressure, divided into several tubular gas bags, … The airship’s shape would resemble in principlal a bunch of banannas trying to straighten out, centered around and stretching the wire centre frame. A couple of bags could be shaped to take advantage of aerodynamics to direct the craft, as well as possibly contribute some lift at speed. My thinking is that you want a lifting body that generates lift primarily by deflection from the lower surfaces.  But probably you should not expect any more than a small amount od lift, basicly enough to trim the vehicle, because the bulkiness of the vehicle will make it impractical to generate a lot of aerodynamic lift. BTW, I think on the old DIrirgibles the props typically could rotate from horzontal to vertical.

Welcome to the trap.  While this discussion stemmed from a consideration of mass air transit downtown, it was really motivated by my concern for traffic downtown generally, national fuel economy concerns, and road infrastructure finances. Fuel dealers  want you to increase your consumption.  You should reduce your wasteful consumption, for many reasons. People’s desire for status urges them to be more conspicuous in thies consumption. I prefer to think that mu status is such that I do not need a bigger shinier car or gun, because my dick is really quite big enough, and I don’t need a bunch of people looking admiringly at it. The only real solution is to use some office tower space for dwelling units for the people employed in these hi rise temples to business, to save on commuting concerns. But, common sense being as common as it is, it seem we are all doomed to poisonous air, water, fish, beef, etc, unless we all get busy doing something about it, most importantly, thinking. Just what the hell do all those people in all those 50 th floor offices actually do? With computers, surely all clerical duties can be handled by robot telephone servers and email cheques? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Large fabric or inflatable oars or rotors, or regular, but large slow, quiet propellors might enable the operator to row or pedal some distance in calm air, semi-orthinopter style. Could it qualify as a human powered helicopter? Maybe 15 or 20 years ago I saw a picture of the Comedian Gallagher flying a contraption that was a sort of ballon (maybe a hot air balloon) with a pedal operated propellor.  I think it was a real working machine, not just a stage prop. When I did this calculation in my head I think I must have slipped a decimal point.  Using a calculator, it appears that a hydrogen filled gas bag 10 meters long by 4 meters in diameter would just about lift a bit over 156 kilos, about 350 libs, at sea level. Hmm, it might be practical after all. Would you be allowed to wiegh the craft while full of ‘fuel’ gas and how would that affect fuel quantity allowance? You lost me.

There was a discussion about U/L weight restrictions, and it occurred to me that a hydrogen fuel bag possesses ‘negative weight.’ Do U/L regs presently make any allowance for fuel other than gasoline?  How would the regulation apply to an U/L A/C with a large H2 fuel bag? Could you weigh the A/C without it’s fuel, or with it? What if you considered the non-empty fuel bag as a safety device like a float? So far as U/L construction is concerned, I wondered about the construction technique used by that most admirable of nature’s flyers, the dragonfly.  Like all insects, it’s wing is constructed using stretched membranes inflated with a gas to assist in maintaining it’s shape. I wondered, and still do, if dragonflys or any other insects had evolved a method to use hydrogen to inflate it’s wings. It just seems so attractive, so beneficial that I would expect it to occur in nature, if it is possible. That leads me to question what kind of metabolistic process might yield H2 as a product. Perhaps the microbes living near the deep ocean’s ‘black smoker’ vents might produce H2 as a byproduct?  Could that metabolistic process be transplanted into, say, soybeans, or kelp? Might it be already used by some flying insect that perhaps required special food, like nectar from a certain flower growing in a certain soil containing a certain catalyst, to produce H2 for it’s wings? It doesn’t seem likely, since if it was possible, we might be familiar with great numbers of airship insects, flying around without wings, more like fishes floating in the air. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Or would there need to be a seperate regulation to cover airship hybrids? Maybe it would be covered under ‘experimental’. I also thought about using a low pressure fuel tank in a lightweight car the size of a tractor trailer instead of a heavy strong hydride tank.  If you had a large H2 fuel bag, it would generate bouyancy.  If you wanted to carry enough low pressure H2 fuel for long range, might it make sense to lose the heavy wheels, frame and other heavy stuff, … In my childhood I read an anthology of short (fictional) stories about a group of kids in a small town somewhere who entertained themselves by making neat contraptions.  One story was called "The Great Balloon Race" or some such and instead of ahot air balloon with ballast they used a helium balloon and carried a gas powered compressor up with them.  To go up, they let gas out of the bottle into the balloon.  To go down, the compressed helium and put it back in the bottle.

That is about the same consideration as my previous question, below. I would like to see that anthology. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -How much bouyancy would you ‘lose’ if you pumped say, half of the gas in the lift bag into a 10 atmosphere bag?  At what pressure does H2 weigh the same as stp atmosphere? Hydrogen at stp wieghs about what, about .2 of air? You might want to check a freshman physics text to see if my memory is accurate below. For P = pressure, V = Volume, T = absolute temperature, n = number of molecules, N = number of moles, M = molecular weight, and R = universal gas constant, A = avogodro’s number (6.022E23), m is mass and k is a constant. Avogdro’s law:  Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have equal numbers of molecules. Boyle’ law:  PV = k at constant temperature Charles law: V2 = V1(T2 – T1) at constant pressure                               (1,2 are subscripts, not factors) The ideal gas law: PV = NRT = nkT where k = N/A                or: PV = mrT, where r = R/M, so r is a different                constant for each gas. Light gases within the temperature and pressure ranges of this discussion are very well modeled by these equations.  Using them, you can answer all your questions.  As a fun exercise, you can prove that water vapor is lighter than air. Have fun.   It’s a gas.

When did moles take up airship flying? Seriously, I can envision personal H2 airships using this bouyancy bladder thing. It won’t do for Moller’s downtown flight plans, niether will Moller’s aircar toy, but for retreat camps, and way out in the lands of no roads, it might.  Especially if you consider unserviced land is cheap, and cheapies like me like the idea of getting far away without a lot of fuel expense. Even thinking about ‘free’ flight slips me beyond the surly bonds of the earth.

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Or a small lawn chair with a lawn mower engine twirling a prop for short range fun?

http://tlc.ousd.k12.ca.us/~acody/larry.html    On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used? To a trapline, of course.  Clothesline pullies with a balloon at the top, and several others on tethers.  Just reel in the one you want, get in, and go.  You would need to pull the thing down to get in it,   unless the bouyancy compensator bladder could be pumped up and down quickly enough.  

Cool, until you get high winds which are commonplace on top of skyscrapers.  The Bernouli effect can make the wind over the top of a skyscraper much faster than ‘ambient’. Perhaps dirigible was not the right word, as I envision an ultralight soft bladder held in shape by internal webs and pressure, divided into several tubular gas bags, … The airship’s shape would resemble in principlal a bunch of banannas trying to straighten out, centered around and stretching the wire centre frame. A couple of bags could be shaped to take advantage of aerodynamics to direct the craft, as well as possibly contribute some lift at speed.

My thinking is that you want a lifting body that generates lift primarily by deflection from the lower surfaces.  But probably you should not expect any more than a small amount od lift, basicly enough to trim the vehicle, because the bulkiness of the vehicle will make it impractical to generate a lot of aerodynamic lift. BTW, I think on the old DIrirgibles the props typically could rotate from horzontal to vertical. Large fabric or inflatable oars or rotors, or regular, but large slow, quiet propellors might enable the operator to row or pedal some distance in calm air, semi-orthinopter style. Could it qualify as a human powered helicopter?

Maybe 15 or 20 years ago I saw a picture of the Comedian Gallagher flying a contraption that was a sort of ballon (maybe a hot air balloon) with a pedal operated propellor.  I think it was a real working machine, not just a stage prop. When I did this calculation in my head I think I must have slipped a decimal point.  Using a calculator, it appears that a hydrogen filled gas bag 10 meters long by 4 meters in diameter would just about lift a bit over 156 kilos, about 350 libs, at sea level. Hmm, it might be practical after all. Would you be allowed to wiegh the craft while full of ‘fuel’ gas and how would that affect fuel quantity allowance?

You lost me. Or would there need to be a seperate regulation to cover airship hybrids?

Maybe it would be covered under ‘experimental’. I also thought about using a low pressure fuel tank in a lightweight car the size of a tractor trailer instead of a heavy strong hydride tank.  If you had a large H2 fuel bag, it would generate bouyancy.  If you wanted to carry enough low pressure H2 fuel for long range, might it make sense to lose the heavy wheels, frame and other heavy stuff, …

In my childhood I read an anthology of short (fictional) stories about a group of kids in a small town somewhere who entertained themselves by making neat contraptions.  One story was called "The Great Balloon Race" or some such and instead of ahot air balloon with ballast they used a helium balloon and carried a gas powered compressor up with them.  To go up, they let gas out of the bottle into the balloon.  To go down, the compressed helium and put it back in the bottle. How much bouyancy would you ‘lose’ if you pumped say, half of the gas in the lift bag into a 10 atmosphere bag?  At what pressure does H2 weigh the same as stp atmosphere? Hydrogen at stp wieghs about what, about .2 of air?

You might want to check a freshman physics text to see if my memory is accurate below. For P = pressure, V = Volume, T = absolute temperature, n = number of molecules, N = number of moles, M = molecular weight, and R = universal gas constant, A = avogodro’s number (6.022E23), m is mass and k is a constant. Avogdro’s law:  Equal volumes of gas at the same temperature and pressure have equal numbers of molecules. Boyle’ law:  PV = k at constant temperature Charles law: V2 = V1(T2 – T1) at constant pressure                               (1,2 are subscripts, not factors) The ideal gas law: PV = NRT = nkT where k = N/A                or: PV = mrT, where r = R/M, so r is a different                constant for each gas. Light gases within the temperature and pressure ranges of this discussion are very well modeled by these equations.  Using them, you can answer all your questions.  As a fun exercise, you can prove that water vapor is lighter than air. Have fun.   It’s a gas. — FF

Response:

Isn’t Kimo Jim working on the "lighter than air" catagory of Sportpilot / LSA? I bet he would have some insight. Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about making an ultralight hybrid aircraft / dirigible inflated with hydrogen?  Would you weight it empty (deflated) for weight restrictions if it was aircraft like? Would the 5 gallon gasoline fuel restriction for ultralights convert in any useful way into a volume of gaseous hydrogen equivalent? [snip]

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One word:  helium.

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One word:  helium.

Another word: expense.  Helium has to be extacted from natural gas and shipped in pressure cylinders.  Hydrogen can be produced locally.   One problem with personal lighter than air craft is the size. Calculate how much volume you have to displace to lift your body.  A dirigible is distinguished from a blimp by virtue of rigid or semirigid construction. That structure has to be lifted too, as well as the engine, fuel, gondola etc.  On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used? As the volume of the gas bag gets bigger and bigger the craft will be less able to move upwind.  Even in still conditions it will be limited to speeds comparable to ground traffic. The advantage of dirigibles in the past has been that they can stay aloft for many days.  That advantage was important when heavier than air craft were slower, less reliable and could not hover.   A personal dirigible would be way cool however! — FF

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One word:  helium. Another word: expense.  Helium has to be extacted from natural gas and shipped in pressure cylinders.  Hydrogen can be produced locally. One problem with personal lighter than air craft is the size. Calculate how much volume you have to displace to lift your body.  A dirigible is distinguished from a blimp by virtue of rigid or semirigid construction. That structure has to be lifted too, as well as the engine, fuel, gondola etc.  On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used? As the volume of the gas bag gets bigger and bigger the craft will be less able to move upwind.  Even in still conditions it will be limited to speeds comparable to ground traffic. The advantage of dirigibles in the past has been that they can stay aloft for many days.  That advantage was important when heavier than air craft were slower, less reliable and could not hover. A personal dirigible would be way cool however!

Clearly the best option would be to maximise lift by combining the lifting gas with a burner to heat the gas like in a hot air ballon, by using hydrogen that would guarantee a rocket like performance and rate of climb, although endurance might be slightly limited! Alternatively instead of filling the structure of your ultralight with expensive helium to gain that precious two pounds of lift, just pipe the exhaust into the wings – that will fill the wings with hot air – if we assume a 10 metre wingspan, 1 metre cord, and an average wing depth of 10 cm, then the 1 cubic metre of air in the wings could easily provide a pound of lift. Andy

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One problem with personal lighter than air craft is the size. Calculate how much volume you have to displace to lift your body.  A dirigible is distinguished from a blimp by virtue of rigid or semirigid construction. That structure has to be lifted too, as well as the engine, fuel, gondola etc.

Or a small lawn chair with a lawn mower engine twirling a prop for short range fun?    On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used?

To a trapline, of course.  Clothesline pullies with a balloon at the top, and several others on tethers.  Just reel in the one you want, get in, and go.  You would need to pull the thing down to get in it,   unless the bouyancy compensator bladder could be pumped up and down quickly enough.  So now, we need what, a 1 hp hydrogen gas pump, about 20 pounds, to manage bouyancy without ‘ballast?’ Note, you would only need this power to descend without dumping gas. Perhaps dirigible was not the right word, as I envision an ultralight soft bladder held in shape by internal webs and pressure, divided into several tubular gas bags, one or more of which would be sturdily enough made to accept a considerable portion of the lift gas into a higher pressure bouyancy control and excess fuel bladder. The airship’s shape would resemble in principlal a bunch of banannas trying to straighten out, centered around and stretching the wire centre frame. A couple of bags could be shaped to take advantage of aerodynamics to direct the craft, as well as possibly contribute some lift at speed. Sort of a wing in body shape. Large fabric or inflatable oars or rotors, or regular, but large slow, quiet propellors might enable the operator to row or pedal some distance in calm air, semi-orthinopter style. Could it qualify as a human powered helicopter? Would some bouyancy assist nontheless allow a man to power an orthinopter style ‘bird suit?’ When I did this calculation in my head I think I must have slipped a decimal point.  Using a calculator, it appears that a hydrogen filled gas bag 10 meters long by 4 meters in diameter would just about lift a bit over 156 kilos, about 350 libs, at sea level. Hmm, it might be practical after all.

Would you be allowed to wiegh the craft while full of ‘fuel’ gas and how would that affect fuel quantity allowance? Or would there need to be a seperate regulation to cover airship hybrids? This, naturally, is an attempt to figure out a way to enable common backyard flight, by eliminating as much noise as possible.  I do believe the main objection to any sort of backyard aeroplane or helicopter would be the noise. The idea sprang out of seeing Moller’s impractical aircar on TV, and a vision for a method to store home made solar shingle derived hydrogen for a landcar using a large low pressure H2 gasbag tethered to and serviced by an unused chimney. I also thought about using a low pressure fuel tank in a lightweight car the size of a tractor trailer instead of a heavy strong hydride tank.  If you had a large H2 fuel bag, it would generate bouyancy.  If you wanted to carry enough low pressure H2 fuel for long range, might it make sense to lose the heavy wheels, frame and other heavy stuff, float under a gasbag in a swing seat and skidoo suit, and stop paying maintenance on road infrastructure, as well as energy penalties imposed by flight produced drag? No sense in moving next door to the factory, eh? We are thinking about a feasable low energy future, non? How much bouyancy would you ‘lose’ if you pumped say, half of the gas in the lift bag into a 10 atmosphere bag?  At what pressure does H2 weigh the same as stp atmosphere? Hydrogen at stp wieghs about what, about .2 of air? If that bag springs a leak and empties, how much bouyancy would you lose? Consider that some of the H2 aboard would be intended as fuel and paradoxically, seemingly weighs first less, then more as it is consumed. What would be the most efficient shape for any airship using bouyancy for takeoff and aerodynamics for flight and a gliding landing, near empty of hydrogen fuel?  Would it be a flattened, cambered, cut-off teardrop? So many silly questions from a tyro, eh? It is all very interesting. Terry K

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One problem with personal lighter than air craft is the size. Calculate how much volume you have to displace to lift your body.  A dirigible is distinguished from a blimp by virtue of rigid or semirigid construction. That structure has to be lifted too, as well as the engine, fuel, gondola etc.  On top of a typical skyscraper you’ll have room for about one dirigible at a time–where are you going to park the thing when it’s not being used?

When I did this calculation in my head I think I must have slipped a decimal point.  Using a calculator, it appears that a hydrogen filled gas bag 10 meters long by 4 meters in diameter would just about lift a bit over 156 kilos, about 350 libs, at sea level. Hmm, it might be practical after all. — FF

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Try to remember the key words "Lighter than air".  Helium is lighter than air and hydrogen is even lighter than helium.  However, a vacuum is lighter than everything.  You can’t fill a rubber balloon with a vacuum, but you can create one in your tubing structures.  If you really feel its that important, just evacuate the air in the tubing. It will create more lift than filling it with hydrogen or helium. However, I think we’re talking grams and not pounds in either case, Dennis. Alternatively instead of filling the structure of your ultralight with expensive helium to gain that precious two pounds of lift, just pipe the exhaust into the wings – that will fill the wings with hot air – if we assume a 10 metre wingspan, 1 metre cord, and an average wing depth of 10 cm, then the 1 cubic metre of air in the wings could easily provide a pound of lift.

Dennis Hawkins n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do) "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.    A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.    A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B’s are out of work." To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using them to put Americans out of work, visit the following web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm  

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How about making an ultralight hybrid aircraft / dirigible inflated with hydrogen?  Would you weight it empty (deflated) for weight restrictions if it was aircraft like? Would the 5 gallon gasoline fuel restriction for ultralights convert in any useful way into a volume of gaseous hydrogen equivalent? A dragonfly’s wings are stiffened by internal gas pressure, that’s obvious if you look at one. So are other insect wings, and they are the most efficient flyers there is. Are they inflated with hydrogen? That would seem like an advantageous evolution. Now, I can’t wait to capture one and see if the wing burns especially brightly. After watching the Discovery channel about Moller’s skycar, I can’t help wondering if an anti static hydrogen dirigible using fat wings shaped for lift would be more a conventional a/c or a dirigible. Seems a dirigible would make a far more practical aircar than a million dollar 8 engine robot flyer, at least for relatively short commutes to downtown from a suburb without roads, that would make housing developments cheaper.  Besides, who is going to do a hundred miles an hour between skyscrapers in traffic on auto pilot, with the way winds flip around near them? I believe Moller’s idea is doomed, a millionaire’s pipe dream. Totally impractical and inefficient in a hydrogen powered world. If a dirigible had a hydrogen bouyancy compensating tank of variable but still relatively low pressure and volume inside a lower pressure bouyancy envelope, would pumping hydrogen gas between high and low pressure envelopes control lift and gross altitude in an efficient and effective manner, like some fish do, without needing inefficient ballast? What would happen if you lost power and coudn’t compress lift gas, and continued to rise out of control as the gas in the envelope expanded at increasing altitude?  Would you need to dump H2 to come down, until you lost the capability to maintain altitude? Parachute time? Wouldn’t a dirigible inherently display good fuel efficiency, considering it doesn’t need to utilise power to generate lift, but perhaps only a little to fine control altitude for landing, etc? How good is the lift drag speed fuel economy tradeoff for a dirigible at useful speeds? How much could you gain or lose to headwinds and tailwinds? Why don’t we hear more about personal dirigibles fuelled and / or lifted by hydrogen, especially since modern anti static materials would seem to remove the Hindenburg terror factor? If the vectored propellors used to drive and control a dirigible were perhaps partly powered by thin film solar cells, hydrogen fuel cells, or hydrogen or gasoline internal combustion engines in various configurations, might there be a capability to build an affordable, quiet, backyard vtol vehicle, fuelled with H2 generated by home electrolysis? A hydrogen powered dirigible "car" doesn’t need expensive infrastructure like roads or bridges. How would that affect the national economy, considering fuel scarcities, especially if roads were abandoned? Is the box too small to think about this? Is there any comprehensive research on this? It seems a one or two person H2 dirigible might only be about as big as a bus, and it could be tethered to your rooftop. The fuel could be hydrolized from waste water during low hydro demand hours, or while the sun shone on solar shingles. Opinions? Don’t bother telling me I’m crazy, I suspected that decades ago, after talking to many of the sane dullards I meet. Most just need a consuming interest to become as crazy as me. Terry K

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Question:

H1K If it is a DV, then I doubt that there’s much that could be read from a VAG unit, assuming that you don’t have access to any figures from a known-good A2. Hi H1K, I suppose he could still have his A2’s torque measured on a roller and compare that to stock specs, after all it hasn’t been chipped.

I was talking more about a direct comparison – just to see if there *really* was a problem Then, again, by means of the VAG-C unit, and since latest stock turbo Audis boast about an almost flat torque curve, he could check to see if there are any crooks that might indicate some kind of sudden boost changes?

..back to that RR, I’d say. Any slip on the rollers is much more significant, IMHO. I am seriously considering getting a Forge DV myself, but for one thing VAG-COMs are very rare here, and for another I’m not so sure what benefits I could get from it.

None, unless there’s something wrong. If an aftermarket outfit says you can get a (measurable!) performance hike, then ditch ‘em. If they say you /might/ just increase reliability – if you’re lucky – well, then, listen ;o) They might still be wrong – but it’s all down to the reasoning.. ..personally, my two biggest Audi upgrades were: 1) working-as-specified-DV, and 2) tyres-that-connect-to-the-road-via-something-more-than-habit[1]. ContiSport tyres are probably good as /something/ on TTs. Not sure what.. bit big for ashtrays.. bit uncomfortable as seats. Certainly no bl**dy use as tyres, unless all you’re doing is making sure that the floorpan is above the ground and you want something round-and-black for photographs. ContiSport/Audi. Hmm… fish/bicycle, female/UK clergyman  (ducks behind parapet ;o) H1K [1] Best in "willing-but-pointless" category – up to this point – were the very Italian Pirellis on my Fester, which gripped better in the dry than an Inland Revenue inspector, and were about as reliable as a 10-year old Allegro (but with none of the saving graces[2]). Perfectly happy with dry performance (assuming that you’re the sort of person that, upon surviving a plane crash in the middle of a sea/Staines reservoir[3], doesn’t mind if your lifejacket has a leak), but about as useful as a sherbet umbrella in the wet. Tip: best observed from outside the car ;o) [2]  No, I can’t, either. Answers on a postcard.. [3]  Where else are you going to get a chance to try out that lifejacket between Heathrow and Edinbro’. Assuming that someone’s not nicked it. [The lifejacket, that is..!].

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Dear Peter, Always nice to read your posts. Oh, I know what a DV looks like – I fitted Forge DVs on my A6.  I just haven’t looked to see whether I can find one on the A2.

Could you elaborate on why you did fit Forges into your A6? And I guess that must be another A6, not your RS, so is it the 2.7T or the 1.8T, do you have that chipped? As an aside, I have chatted (separately) to a couple of the Audi tuning gurus about swapping DVs on the RS – the advice is that the standard units fitted are pretty good and don’t need to be changed unless chipping.

Are you meaning to say that an aftermarket DV would be necessary to keep up with the extra boost produced by chipping? I was at my mechanic’s only yesterday and he told me turbo lag – rather noticeable on 1.8T’s, could be reduced by using an aftermarket DV, do you know how much science is in that statement? Maybe that’s the one question for your "gurus" Cheers, JP Roberts PS. Ever so grateful you recommended that little box to me!

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H1K If it is a DV, then I doubt that there’s much that could be read from a VAG unit, assuming that you don’t have access to any figures from a known-good A2.

Hi H1K, I suppose he could still have his A2’s torque measured on a roller and compare that to stock specs, after all it hasn’t been chipped. Then, again, by means of the VAG-C unit, and since latest stock turbo Audis boast about an almost flat torque curve, he could check to see if there are any crooks that might indicate some kind of sudden boost changes? I am seriously considering getting a Forge DV myself, but for one thing VAG-COMs are very rare here, and for another I’m not so sure what benefits I could get from it. JP Roberts

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Dear Peter,

Replied by PM. — Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with ‘bellfamily’)

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As I understand it, JPF’s acronyms refer to: MIL Malfunction Indicator Light or similar. MAF Mass Air Flow sensor TDI Turbo Diesel electronic Injection VAG Volkswagen Aktiensgesellschaft or the Diagnostic tool that Volkswagen Ltd. uses to check on their cars. My two cents, JP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  [Snip] indicating a failed DV (but without the infamous goose-honk). Err… that’s an interesting description.  My wife’s A2 1.4TDi exhibits a ‘goose honk’ everytime you open the throttle to pull away from rest. I presume that a TDi has a DV – is it likely that it has failed? The only other possible symptoms I could point at would be less ‘go’ than I would like below 2000RPM (above that it really takes off), but I assumed that this is standard for a small TDi.  Also the fuel consumption is significantly worse than I had expected (average 50.8, according to DIS), and 70mph cruising at around the same value (which doesn’t tie in with the official figure of 78.5 extra-urban).  I like to think that my driving style is reasonably economic (my RS6 is currently showing 23.4 average on the DIS!). Check whatever it is that JFP is saying first (must confess that I couldn’t follow the abbreviations) On a TT (YMMV ;o), the DV is a small chunk of plastic, something like (from memory) 1.5-2 inches in diameter, just "south" of  the main inlet hose. The honk is caused by the membrane fluttering when it should be sealing. Makes a big difference to performance (can’t remember the MPG, though) HTH H1K

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However, as there is still some slight surge in 5th gear at full throttle. I suspect my MAF or DV could be on their way to paradise, too. Then, again throttle body has not been flawless in pre ’00’s 1.8T engines. After reading some Audiworld post, do those of you here think it wise to install some aftermarket DV? Thanks, JP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Problem solved! It was a faulty wastegate valve connector! Thanks to all, JP Do you guys know if it is now possible to get a wastegate rod replaced without getting a whole new turbo? I hear that was not possible a couple of years ago, but since things keep getting better all the time … JP Roberts P.S.: Might be time to upgrade to a k04? Oh, I would be so happy if it were just some piping!

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Err… that’s an interesting description.  My wife’s A2 1.4TDi exhibits a ‘goose honk’ everytime you open the throttle to pull away from rest. I presume that a TDi has a DV – is it likely that it has failed?

 [Snip] Check whatever it is that JFP is saying first

Yep, will do – but I doubt that it’s the MAF, the car had only done a few thousand miles when the ‘honk’ was first pointed out to me (by my salesman), and I can’t believe the MAF ‘honks’.  However, the MAF could be responsible for poor consumption and lack of power at certain points. (must confess that I couldn’t follow the abbreviations)

I didn’t get ‘MIL’, but JPR is probably right on that one! On a TT (YMMV ;o), the DV is a small chunk of plastic, something like (from memory) 1.5-2 inches in diameter, just "south" of  the main inlet hose.

Oh, I know what a DV looks like – I fitted Forge DVs on my A6.  I just haven’t looked to see whether I can find one on the A2. As an aside, I have chatted (separately) to a couple of the Audi tuning gurus about swapping DVs on the RS – the advice is that the standard units fitted are pretty good and don’t need to be changed unless chipping. The honk is caused by the membrane fluttering when it should be sealing. Makes a big difference to performance (can’t remember the MPG, though)

Performance affected at any particular revs, or throughout the whole range?  Once the revs get to 2000 (up to around 4600), the little car does pull quite well (it is only 1422cc, 3 cylinder, after all), but it is a little ‘flat’ below 2000. I guess I could look on ETKA for presence of a DV!  I should also get around to connecting up my VAG-COM to check for fault codes. —

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<much snippage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, I know what a DV looks like – I fitted Forge DVs on my A6.  I just haven’t looked to see whether I can find one on the A2. As an aside, I have chatted (separately) to a couple of the Audi tuning gurus about swapping DVs on the RS – the advice is that the standard units fitted are pretty good and don’t need to be changed unless chipping. The honk is caused by the membrane fluttering when it should be sealing. Makes a big difference to performance (can’t remember the MPG, though) Performance affected at any particular revs, or throughout the whole range?  Once the revs get to 2000 (up to around 4600), the little car does pull quite well (it is only 1422cc, 3 cylinder, after all), but it is a little ‘flat’ below 2000. I guess I could look on ETKA for presence of a DV!  I should also get around to connecting up my VAG-COM to check for fault codes.

IIRC, power was down across the entire boosted range, but more apparent at what should have been peak boost (OTOH, the standard TT 225 curve is pretty flat, so that’s not a great surprise) Mine didn’t honk before replacement – I just noticed that the car was performing below the quoted figures. Changed the DV, and the car was transformed.. If it is a DV, then I doubt that there’s much that could be read from a VAG unit, assuming that you don’t have access to any figures from a known-good A2. H1K

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 [Snip] indicating a failed DV (but without the infamous goose-honk).

Err… that’s an interesting description.  My wife’s A2 1.4TDi exhibits a ‘goose honk’ everytime you open the throttle to pull away from rest. I presume that a TDi has a DV – is it likely that it has failed? The only other possible symptoms I could point at would be less ‘go’ than I would like below 2000RPM (above that it really takes off), but I assumed that this is standard for a small TDi.  Also the fuel consumption is significantly worse than I had expected (average 50.8, according to DIS), and 70mph cruising at around the same value (which doesn’t tie in with the official figure of 78.5 extra-urban).  I like to think that my driving style is reasonably economic (my RS6 is currently showing 23.4 average on the DIS!). All figures here are based on imperial gallons! —

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Did your faulty DV throw a code? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear HOK, God knows how I desperately want it to be the inlet hose and I still have some hope it will be. I’ll have it checked tomorrow morning, so your opinions are greatly appreciated – given the kind of dealers here one never knows if you might be cheated into buying a new turbo when that was not necessary at all. Symptoms are as follows: Continual observance of warm-up and cooling-down procedures from day 1 of buying the car new. What happened yesterday was some mixed-condition driving: Some 1/2 hour on dual-carriage way, lots of frequent boost because of heavy traffic, avg speed 130 kph. Then some 1/2 h up a mountain pass – non-spirited, some 1/2 h downhill, perfect turbo cool-down. It was only when I was getting home that I went without boost when attempting to overtake in fifth gear. Repeated attempts showed very little or no boost was present. No funny noise whatsoever, emissions seem to be OK, max power restricted to the normal aspirated engine range or at most to stock range – my perception. Engine behaves normal and no lights went on on dashboard but there is only a little – but steady – boost only in the 1,300 to 2,000 rpm range. Fair enough to mention I’d been seeing a small amount of surging under full throttle in 5th gear since day 1 of chipping (from 56k miles to 75k) and always-present pinging at 2,000 rev mid-throttle on slopes. Since the turbo is still spooling, the worst thing might be a broken wastegate rod, but I keep my fingers crossed and hope it’s the hose. <snip Did it feel almost like hitting a brick wall when the revs were piled on? If that’s the case, then I’d say that it’s almost certainly the hose either crushing or a combination of crush and slipping off of the metal pipe (something else that has been observed) If the car feels down on power at odd times, then you might consider replacing the DV. I replaced mine at something like 800-1000 miles with a Forge unit – response was instantly and noticeably better, indicating a failed DV (but without the infamous goose-honk). The hose will get replaced once the car gets back from the body shop (thanks, dear neighbour of mine, for driving into my car when parked on my own driveway..) Best bet for yourself, I think, is to check that the hose is tight at both ends, and maybe consider a DV swap (can’t remember the age of your car, so I’m not sure of you have Bosch’s latest attempt fitted) IIRC an aftermarket DV should be in the region of GBP 85, and is a 5-10 minute job to swap. H1K

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear HOK, God knows how I desperately want it to be the inlet hose and I still have some hope it will be. I’ll have it checked tomorrow morning, so your opinions are greatly appreciated – given the kind of dealers here one never knows if you might be cheated into buying a new turbo when that was not necessary at all. Symptoms are as follows: Continual observance of warm-up and cooling-down procedures from day 1 of buying the car new. What happened yesterday was some mixed-condition driving: Some 1/2 hour on dual-carriage way, lots of frequent boost because of heavy traffic, avg speed 130 kph. Then some 1/2 h up a mountain pass – non-spirited, some 1/2 h downhill, perfect turbo cool-down. It was only when I was getting home that I went without boost when attempting to overtake in fifth gear. Repeated attempts showed very little or no boost was present. No funny noise whatsoever, emissions seem to be OK, max power restricted to the normal aspirated engine range or at most to stock range – my perception. Engine behaves normal and no lights went on on dashboard but there is only a little – but steady – boost only in the 1,300 to 2,000 rpm range. Fair enough to mention I’d been seeing a small amount of surging under full throttle in 5th gear since day 1 of chipping (from 56k miles to 75k) and always-present pinging at 2,000 rev mid-throttle on slopes. Since the turbo is still spooling, the worst thing might be a broken wastegate rod, but I keep my fingers crossed and hope it’s the hose.

<snip Did it feel almost like hitting a brick wall when the revs were piled on? If that’s the case, then I’d say that it’s almost certainly the hose either crushing or a combination of crush and slipping off of the metal pipe (something else that has been observed) If the car feels down on power at odd times, then you might consider replacing the DV. I replaced mine at something like 800-1000 miles with a Forge unit – response was instantly and noticeably better, indicating a failed DV (but without the infamous goose-honk). The hose will get replaced once the car gets back from the body shop (thanks, dear neighbour of mine, for driving into my car when parked on my own driveway..) Best bet for yourself, I think, is to check that the hose is tight at both ends, and maybe consider a DV swap (can’t remember the age of your car, so I’m not sure of you have Bosch’s latest attempt fitted) IIRC an aftermarket DV should be in the region of GBP 85, and is a 5-10 minute job to swap. H1K

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Problem solved! It was a faulty wastegate valve connector! Thanks to all, JP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you guys know if it is now possible to get a wastegate rod replaced without getting a whole new turbo? I hear that was not possible a couple of years ago, but since things keep getting better all the time … JP Roberts P.S.: Might be time to upgrade to a k04? Oh, I would be so happy if it were just some piping!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  [Snip] indicating a failed DV (but without the infamous goose-honk). Err… that’s an interesting description.  My wife’s A2 1.4TDi exhibits a ‘goose honk’ everytime you open the throttle to pull away from rest. I presume that a TDi has a DV – is it likely that it has failed? The only other possible symptoms I could point at would be less ‘go’ than I would like below 2000RPM (above that it really takes off), but I assumed that this is standard for a small TDi.  Also the fuel consumption is significantly worse than I had expected (average 50.8, according to DIS), and 70mph cruising at around the same value (which doesn’t tie in with the official figure of 78.5 extra-urban).  I like to think that my driving style is reasonably economic (my RS6 is currently showing 23.4 average on the DIS!).

Check whatever it is that JFP is saying first (must confess that I couldn’t follow the abbreviations) On a TT (YMMV ;o), the DV is a small chunk of plastic, something like (from memory) 1.5-2 inches in diameter, just "south" of  the main inlet hose. The honk is caused by the membrane fluttering when it should be sealing. Makes a big difference to performance (can’t remember the MPG, though) HTH H1K

Response:

Do you guys know if it is now possible to get a wastegate rod replaced without getting a whole new turbo? I hear that was not possible a couple of years ago, but since things keep getting better all the time … JP Roberts P.S.: Might be time to upgrade to a k04? Oh, I would be so happy if it were just some piping!

Response:

Do you guys know if it is now possible to get a wastegate rod replaced without getting a whole new turbo? I hear that was not possible a couple of years ago, but since things keep getting better all the time …

What are the symptoms? Given the problem with DVs and (on chipped cars, at least) the main inlet hose crushing.. — Hairy One Kenobi Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the highly-opinionated person expressing the opinion in the first place. So there!

Response:

Dear HOK, God knows how I desperately want it to be the inlet hose and I still have some hope it will be. I’ll have it checked tomorrow morning, so your opinions are greatly appreciated – given the kind of dealers here one never knows if you might be cheated into buying a new turbo when that was not necessary at all. Symptoms are as follows: Continual observance of warm-up and cooling-down procedures from day 1 of buying the car new. What happened yesterday was some mixed-condition driving: Some 1/2 hour on dual-carriage way, lots of frequent boost because of heavy traffic, avg speed 130 kph. Then some 1/2 h up a mountain pass – non-spirited, some 1/2 h downhill, perfect turbo cool-down. It was only when I was getting home that I went without boost when attempting to overtake in fifth gear. Repeated attempts showed very little or no boost was present. No funny noise whatsoever, emissions seem to be OK, max power restricted to the normal aspirated engine range or at most to stock range – my perception. Engine behaves normal and no lights went on on dashboard but there is only a little – but steady – boost only in the 1,300 to 2,000 rpm range. Fair enough to mention I’d been seeing a small amount of surging under full throttle in 5th gear since day 1 of chipping (from 56k miles to 75k) and always-present pinging at 2,000 rev mid-throttle on slopes. Since the turbo is still spooling, the worst thing might be a broken wastegate rod, but I keep my fingers crossed and hope it’s the hose. Regards, JP Roberts – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you guys know if it is now possible to get a wastegate rod replaced without getting a whole new turbo? I hear that was not possible a couple of years ago, but since things keep getting better all the time … What are the symptoms? Given the problem with DVs and (on chipped cars, at least) the main inlet hose crushing.. — Hairy One Kenobi Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the highly-opinionated person expressing the opinion in the first place. So there!

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Question:

Would have been a good idea to play the Lexus trick back in 1989-90.  Offer more car for the price of a lesser class. But did they forget to set the price low?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *NOT* According to today’s WSJ, sales of the Phaeton in Europe are very slow so far. Many have wondered why people are suppose to pay luxury brand prices for a people’s car nameplate. Websters dictionary defines Phaeton as: "any of various light four-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles." Funny name for VW’s biggest car. Is anyone running VW actually awake? Randy ‘01 A4Q

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Years ago, I recall a story about how Cadillac advertised that their cars had "redolent interior" – even though "redolent" means "fragrant" just as much as "stinky", they thought it conveyed the idea of luxury.  A rose by any other name….would be as redolent? Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 5kTQ – leather, non-redolent interior 1980 5k – mouse-fur, non redolent interior 1962 and ‘64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes – fabric, redolent interior (filled with mothballs to keep the rodents out)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Websters dictionary defines Phaeton as: "any of various light four-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles." Funny name for VW’s biggest car. Is anyone running VW actually awake? While I wouldn’t pay that kind of money for a Volkswagen for any reason,   the competition is just too great in that price range.   VW claims that the Phaeton is for people who have owned VW all their lives,  and are old enough and financially secure enough to step up to a premium car.   All the while I’ve asked "why not an A8?" The word Phaeton has been used on many great cars before,  back in the 30s and 40s.   Perhaps the reference is more along those lines rather than the true dictionary meaning. — Vic 2000 Mustang GT suspension upgrades 1997 A4 2.8q remove _no_spam to e-mail

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*NOT* According to today’s WSJ, sales of the Phaeton in Europe are very slow so far. Many have wondered why people are suppose to pay luxury brand prices for a people’s car nameplate. Websters dictionary defines Phaeton as: "any of various light four-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles." Funny name for VW’s biggest car. Is anyone running VW actually awake? Randy ‘01 A4Q

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Websters dictionary defines Phaeton as: "any of various light four-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles."

Interesting.  What does Touareg, Touran, and Tarek mean? Thanks, Pete

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Interesting.  What does Touareg, Touran, and Tarek mean?

Touareg is a reference so some tribe in Africa,  according to Road & Crap magazine. — Vic 2000 Mustang GT suspension upgrades 1997 A4 2.8q remove _no_spam to e-mail

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Websters dictionary defines Phaeton as: "any of various light four-wheeled horse-drawn vehicles." Funny name for VW’s biggest car. Is anyone running VW actually awake?

While I wouldn’t pay that kind of money for a Volkswagen for any reason,   the competition is just too great in that price range.   VW claims that the Phaeton is for people who have owned VW all their lives,  and are old enough and financially secure enough to step up to a premium car.   All the while I’ve asked "why not an A8?" The word Phaeton has been used on many great cars before,  back in the 30s and 40s.   Perhaps the reference is more along those lines rather than the true dictionary meaning. — Vic 2000 Mustang GT suspension upgrades 1997 A4 2.8q remove _no_spam to e-mail

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Question:

Well, sounds like they’re getting better though, so good. Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Engine noisy on my 98 DX is very mild at high speeds, however everything else gets noisy (especially the performance wheels that are getting old). The wife’s 2000 EX has better noise insulation, and is noticeably more refined on the highway, but her engine is more buzzy sine the automatic has shorter gears compared to my lofty standard. Pars It is much more quiet than my previous ‘91 Civic, but that’s not hard to accomplish!  Being as aerodynamic as it is, it produces less wind noise than Yeah, no kidding.  I own and drive a 91 Hatch DX right now.  Get that thing above 70 or 75, and it’s like riding in a turboprop plane. Actually have some ear muffs I wear sometimes.  Has been a wonderul little car … very reliable, etc … but the noise factor is definetly something I need to avoid for the next car. other cars, and it has a lot of sound dampening material to soften road noise.  So, to answer your questions: yes, it’s quiet, but I’m sure you’d find a quieter ride in a full-sized Accord.   The seats are very firm, but Yeah, but no hatch with Accord ( or manual with the V6 ), which is something that I need.  Not necessarily looking for a anechoic chamber on wheels, but definetly something considered quiet. well molded and comfortable- I would have no problem driving for many hours. If you are used to plush leather Cadillac seats, you’d probably find the Civic Si seats a bit harsh. Nah, getting older, but not looking for cushy butt Cadillac stuff.  I did take a brief test drive, and liked the seats. Really want to go SI, but struggling with it, versus RSX base model. The advantages of that would be: – blue color – a bit more lower end torque Ah well, will be difficult choice. Robert ( modify address for return email )

( modify address for return email )

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To what point? The side decals are very tacky in my opinion. The Si badges are fine but I would remove them (carefully) before some jackoff removes them (not so carefully).

Maybe post back if you come up with a good way to do that.  Prolly do the same myself. Robert ( modify address for return email )

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Engine noisy on my 98 DX is very mild at high speeds, however everything else gets noisy (especially the performance wheels that are getting old). The wife’s 2000 EX has better noise insulation, and is noticeably more refined on the highway, but her engine is more buzzy sine the automatic has shorter gears compared to my lofty standard. Pars – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is much more quiet than my previous ‘91 Civic, but that’s not hard to accomplish!  Being as aerodynamic as it is, it produces less wind noise than Yeah, no kidding.  I own and drive a 91 Hatch DX right now.  Get that thing above 70 or 75, and it’s like riding in a turboprop plane. Actually have some ear muffs I wear sometimes.  Has been a wonderul little car … very reliable, etc … but the noise factor is definetly something I need to avoid for the next car. other cars, and it has a lot of sound dampening material to soften road noise.  So, to answer your questions: yes, it’s quiet, but I’m sure you’d find a quieter ride in a full-sized Accord.   The seats are very firm, but Yeah, but no hatch with Accord ( or manual with the V6 ), which is something that I need.  Not necessarily looking for a anechoic chamber on wheels, but definetly something considered quiet. well molded and comfortable- I would have no problem driving for many hours. If you are used to plush leather Cadillac seats, you’d probably find the Civic Si seats a bit harsh. Nah, getting older, but not looking for cushy butt Cadillac stuff.  I did take a brief test drive, and liked the seats. Really want to go SI, but struggling with it, versus RSX base model. The advantages of that would be: – blue color – a bit more lower end torque Ah well, will be difficult choice. Robert ( modify address for return email )

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I too like compact sports cars (especially hatchbacks) and am seriously looking at the new SI to replace my ‘92 hatchback. If I got the car, I would like to remove the "i-VTEC DOHC" decals on the side and the Si badges on the front and rear. Can you tell me if the rear Si badge is glued on or are there holes? Thanks. BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in. To what point?  If you’re in the US or Canada, the Si/SiR is the only 7th generation 3 door hatches. — Kent Finnell From the Music City, USA

To what point? The side decals are very tacky in my opinion. The Si badges are fine but I would remove them (carefully) before some jackoff removes them (not so carefully).

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It is much more quiet than my previous ‘91 Civic, but that’s not hard to accomplish!  Being as aerodynamic as it is, it produces less wind noise than

Yeah, no kidding.  I own and drive a 91 Hatch DX right now.  Get that thing above 70 or 75, and it’s like riding in a turboprop plane. Actually have some ear muffs I wear sometimes.  Has been a wonderul little car … very reliable, etc … but the noise factor is definetly something I need to avoid for the next car. other cars, and it has a lot of sound dampening material to soften road noise.  So, to answer your questions: yes, it’s quiet, but I’m sure you’d find a quieter ride in a full-sized Accord.   The seats are very firm, but

Yeah, but no hatch with Accord ( or manual with the V6 ), which is something that I need.  Not necessarily looking for a anechoic chamber on wheels, but definetly something considered quiet. well molded and comfortable- I would have no problem driving for many hours. If you are used to plush leather Cadillac seats, you’d probably find the Civic Si seats a bit harsh.

Nah, getting older, but not looking for cushy butt Cadillac stuff.  I did take a brief test drive, and liked the seats. Really want to go SI, but struggling with it, versus RSX base model. The advantages of that would be: – blue color – a bit more lower end torque Ah well, will be difficult choice. Robert ( modify address for return email )

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BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in. Speaking of which, how many Miles/KM’s should you "take it easy" with a brand new car and then consider it broken in.  When can you really see "what she’s worth?"

You can damage a car at ANY mileage if it’s not warmed up! (trust me)

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Hope this helps everyone.

It always helps me when realizing that there are other non-tuner Civic owners who detest rice as much as I do! Nice post. — Mark – 34 ‘99 Civic Si – as factory as these pics: http://www.lt-solutions.com/images/99CivicSi.jpg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si.  However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si.  However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

I looked at a silver one today-the list price is too much for me! The punk salesman says "yeah, it looks like a Focus". (He must have been on the HS track team )

Response:

Hi. I too like compact sports cars (especially hatchbacks) and am seriously looking at the new SI to replace my ‘92 hatchback. If I got the car, I would like to remove the "i-VTEC DOHC" decals on the side and the Si badges on the front and rear. Can you tell me if the rear Si badge is glued on or are there holes? Thanks. BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in.

To what point?  If you’re in the US or Canada, the Si/SiR is the only 7th generation 3 door hatches. — Kent Finnell From the Music City, USA

Response:

BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in.

Speaking of which, how many Miles/KM’s should you "take it easy" with a brand new car and then consider it broken in.  When can you really see "what she’s worth?"

Response:

Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.

Hehe.  "Offensive curves"

Response:

BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in. Speaking of which, how many Miles/KM’s should you "take it easy" with a brand new car and then consider it broken in.  When can you really see "what she’s worth?"

Every vehicle is different. Your User’s Manual usually details something (though for the RSX it’s vague), and you can always ask at your dealership. I didn’t push the RSX past 3000 for the first 500km or so. Until 1000km I never hit higher than 4000, at around 1500km I started pushing 4500 RPMs. I’ve got 4500km on it now, and I push it to around 5500 routinely. I’ve redlined it two or three times now, but I’m waiting till the first oil change at 8000km to let ‘er rip (generally, the oil they put in for the first 8000km has some lubricating substances and what not that apparently hamper performance a bit). So I’m guessing, if you break the engine in nicely, a couple of hundred kms after your first oil change you should be able to see what your baby can pull. I don’t know too much about cars though, so I may just be talking out of my ass… — Munish Chopra     The FreeBSD NVIDIA Driver Initiative                   http://nvidia.netexplorer.org

Response:

Hmm…ya, that is about right.  I live in a city, and I drive pretty "tame" so it would be hard to get any better. I suppose some people will tell you that 26-27mpg is possible, but you’d have to drive it like a Ford Fiesta to get that.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How’s the mileage? I’ve heard 25 mpg city..is that a accurate estimate? Or can you do better. I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si. However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen. Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

Response:

Hi. I too like compact sports cars (especially hatchbacks) and am seriously looking at the new SI to replace my ‘92 hatchback. If I got the car, I would like to remove the "i-VTEC DOHC" decals on the side and the Si badges on the front and rear. Can you tell me if the rear Si badge is glued on or are there holes? Thanks. BTW, I’m sure you will have even more fun once it is broken in. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si.  However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

Response:

Sorry about the email…I am so sick of spam!! Well, I can add anything you want to know…. …the CD player is nice, but the sound is weaker than I had hoped.  I want to replace the stock rear speakers but I don’t know how to get to them.  I’m going to get a Helm Inc. Body Manual for the car to see how to get to the speakers without damaging the interior.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the same car I’ll be buying in 2 weeks.  Anything else you can add?

Response:

It is much more quiet than my previous ‘91 Civic, but that’s not hard to accomplish!  Being as aerodynamic as it is, it produces less wind noise than other cars, and it has a lot of sound dampening material to soften road noise.  So, to answer your questions: yes, it’s quiet, but I’m sure you’d find a quieter ride in a full-sized Accord.   The seats are very firm, but well molded and comfortable- I would have no problem driving for many hours. If you are used to plush leather Cadillac seats, you’d probably find the Civic Si seats a bit harsh.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen. Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. Hey, thanks a lot for the review/feedback. Regarding your comments above, how is the road noise on the highway … at highway speeds ( 65 – 80 ).  Is it quiet?   Would you be comfortable taking it on longer trips, as opposed to just the daily commute, or whatever? Congrats, Robert ( modify address for return email )

Response:

That’s the same car I’ll be buying in 2 weeks.  Anything else you can add?

Response:

How’s the mileage? I’ve heard 25 mpg city..is that a accurate estimate? Or can you do better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si.  However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

Response:

I’ve seen lots of messages (and misinformation) regarding the new Civic Si on this board, so I thought I’d post my experience with the car. I bought the very first Civic Si that came to my local dealership.  They called me the minute it rolled off the truck, well over a week ago.  It is black and looks VERY nice. Black hides some of the more offensive curves and give the car a very sleek, fast look.  I paid regular invoice price ($19,000+$480 delivery).  No extra charges, no add-ons or accessories. Driving: it is fast, but not quite as fast as the 2000 Civic Si.  However, the extra torque is nice and it pulls quite hard through 2nd and 3rd gear, and I would bet that it could easily compete with the ‘00 Civic Si performance-wise. I’ve only gotten it to 5000 RPM, but it redlines at 7000…after it breaks in a little more, I’ll push that limiter a bit. Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it. The shifter is very nice.  Forget any negative statements you may have heard about it.  It looses it’s novelty after about 5 miles and becomes as natural as any other stick.  Only better- it’s off the floor and feels great with those short throws. Overall, an extremely nice, well-built car.  Oh ya, a little bit about myself: I’m 30 years old.  I bought the car myself because I love compact sports cars and I really like hatchbacks.  I am not a "tuner", and my car will remain 100% RICE FREE.  I’d rather get a brain tumor than be seen with racing decals or neon lights on my car. Hope this helps everyone.

Response:

Feels nice and solid on the highway, like an upscale Volkswagen.  Everyone who has ridden in it loves it.

Hey, thanks a lot for the review/feedback. Regarding your comments above, how is the road noise on the highway … at highway speeds ( 65 – 80 ).  Is it quiet?   Would you be comfortable taking it on longer trips, as opposed to just the daily commute, or whatever? Congrats, Robert ( modify address for return email )

Response:

Question:

When your walking back to your VW is there a crowd gathered around it?Has your VW been boxed in on the highway by intrigued onlookers?-i thought not. just goofing on you, I picked up a 2002- black pt cruiser wednesday, & love it.-I’m a family man now, so the extra horse power i can live without.it was the compromise between a minivan & car.

Response:

Compromise???  Funny, I saw another minivan or family sedan as the compromise.  Didn’t need another SUV and couldn’t talk the wife into a Miata. Hint:  Whatever I bought had to quell my mid-life crisis — it’s going really well. After you’ve had your PT for a few months, let us know if you don’t agree.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When your walking back to your VW is there a crowd gathered around it?Has your VW been boxed in on the highway by intrigued onlookers?-i thought not. just goofing on you, I picked up a 2002- black pt cruiser wednesday, & love it.-I’m a family man now, so the extra horse power i can live without.it was the compromise between a minivan & car.

Response:

 i hope some american comes along and offers the germanys some money so we can get bac the company we have come to love to hate hehe i know wishful thinking

Response:

I agree, DC makes the best looking cars on the market. I’d hate to buy a GM, or, yuk, a Ford Focus….eeeww. What is Lee I doing these days? Rick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i hope some american comes along and offers the germanys some money so we can get bac the company we have come to love to hate hehe i know wishful thinking

Response:

I don’t think that is going to happen this time with the imports doing so well. Maybe DC will will get out of the Chrysler car market and sell only trucks. Who knows?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the last time we had a recission like we do now vw pulled out of the country and vw parts preices went through the roof bac in the early, mid 80"s

Response:

I really like the car – I’ve driven it, priced it all over, read alot of peoples opinions on it – I basically did my research. I was trying a few cars and the PT kept winning out, until I drove a 2002 Jetta GLS 1.8T. It seemed to have all the toys the PT has [was pricing a Limited with all the toys], with an additional 30hp (which to me, the PT is begging for) and around $50 less a month for a no money down, 36 month lease. I get the VW tomorrow – but I still feel disppointed something couldn’t have been worked out for the other. Maybe in a year or 2 when the PT Turbo comes out, and my VW is looking old by then, I’ll move into a PT. We’ll see.  - Joe

Response:

you trader,…..lol

Response:

The reason the VW was less expensive is the residual value is so good on the imports. Even with 0% lease rates by the big 3, import monthly lease payments are lower. DC is going to have to do more to buy the bussiness back.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you trader,…..lol

Response:

the last time we had a recission like we do now vw pulled out of the country and vw parts preices went through the roof bac in the early, mid 80"s

Response:

My new red PT LE with flames turns a lot of heads.  It was my choice, first for the great consumer reviews, but the distinctive styling clinched it for me.  People stop me and comment all the time.  I recently went to a local restaurant, and as I was making my way across the parking lot to the door, I could see the smile welling up on the face of this sweet looking little old lady.  When I got near, she said, "I love your car.  And I have to tell you, I sure like what they have done with the looks of the Volkswagen Bug."   I smiled, and thanked her, and went inside. – Lee Gillie – Spokane, WA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really like the car – I’ve driven it, priced it all over, read alot of peoples opinions on it – I basically did my research. I was trying a few cars and the PT kept winning out, until I drove a 2002 Jetta GLS 1.8T. It seemed to have all the toys the PT has [was pricing a Limited with all the toys], with an additional 30hp (which to me, the PT is begging for) and around $50 less a month for a no money down, 36 month lease. I get the VW tomorrow – but I still feel disppointed something couldn’t have been worked out for the other. Maybe in a year or 2 when the PT Turbo comes out, and my VW is looking old by then, I’ll move into a PT. We’ll see.  - Joe

Response:

I really like the car – I’ve driven it, priced it all over, read alot of peoples opinions on it – I basically did my research. I was trying a few cars and the PT kept winning out, until I drove a 2002 Jetta GLS 1.8T. It seemed to have all the toys the PT has [was pricing a Limited with all the toys], with an additional 30hp (which to me, the PT is begging for) and around $50 less a month for a no money down, 36 month lease. I get the VW tomorrow – but I still feel disppointed something couldn’t have been worked out for the other. Maybe in a year or 2 when the PT Turbo comes out, and my VW is looking old by then, I’ll move into a PT. We’ll see.  - Joe

Response:

you trader,…..lol

Response:

The reason the VW was less expensive is the residual value is so good on the imports. Even with 0% lease rates by the big 3, import monthly lease payments are lower. DC is going to have to do more to buy the bussiness back.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you trader,…..lol

Response:

the last time we had a recission like we do now vw pulled out of the country and vw parts preices went through the roof bac in the early, mid 80"s

Response:

My new red PT LE with flames turns a lot of heads.  It was my choice, first for the great consumer reviews, but the distinctive styling clinched it for me.  People stop me and comment all the time.  I recently went to a local restaurant, and as I was making my way across the parking lot to the door, I could see the smile welling up on the face of this sweet looking little old lady.  When I got near, she said, "I love your car.  And I have to tell you, I sure like what they have done with the looks of the Volkswagen Bug."   I smiled, and thanked her, and went inside. – Lee Gillie – Spokane, WA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really like the car – I’ve driven it, priced it all over, read alot of peoples opinions on it – I basically did my research. I was trying a few cars and the PT kept winning out, until I drove a 2002 Jetta GLS 1.8T. It seemed to have all the toys the PT has [was pricing a Limited with all the toys], with an additional 30hp (which to me, the PT is begging for) and around $50 less a month for a no money down, 36 month lease. I get the VW tomorrow – but I still feel disppointed something couldn’t have been worked out for the other. Maybe in a year or 2 when the PT Turbo comes out, and my VW is looking old by then, I’ll move into a PT. We’ll see.  - Joe

Response:

I don’t think that is going to happen this time with the imports doing so well. Maybe DC will will get out of the Chrysler car market and sell only trucks. Who knows?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the last time we had a recission like we do now vw pulled out of the country and vw parts preices went through the roof bac in the early, mid 80"s

Response:

 i hope some american comes along and offers the germanys some money so we can get bac the company we have come to love to hate hehe i know wishful thinking

Response:

I agree, DC makes the best looking cars on the market. I’d hate to buy a GM, or, yuk, a Ford Focus….eeeww. What is Lee I doing these days? Rick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i hope some american comes along and offers the germanys some money so we can get bac the company we have come to love to hate hehe i know wishful thinking

Response:

When your walking back to your VW is there a crowd gathered around it?Has your VW been boxed in on the highway by intrigued onlookers?-i thought not. just goofing on you, I picked up a 2002- black pt cruiser wednesday, & love it.-I’m a family man now, so the extra horse power i can live without.it was the compromise between a minivan & car.

Response:

Compromise???  Funny, I saw another minivan or family sedan as the compromise.  Didn’t need another SUV and couldn’t talk the wife into a Miata. Hint:  Whatever I bought had to quell my mid-life crisis — it’s going really well. After you’ve had your PT for a few months, let us know if you don’t agree.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When your walking back to your VW is there a crowd gathered around it?Has your VW been boxed in on the highway by intrigued onlookers?-i thought not. just goofing on you, I picked up a 2002- black pt cruiser wednesday, & love it.-I’m a family man now, so the extra horse power i can live without.it was the compromise between a minivan & car.

Response:

Question:

"I’ll tell you one thing, if things keep going the way they are, it’s going to be impossible to buy a week’s groceries for $20." "Have you seen the new cars coming out next year?  It won’t be long before $5000 will only buy a used one." "If cigarettes keep going up in price, I’m going to quit.  A quarter a pack is ridiculous.." "Did you hear the post office is thinking about charging a dime just to mail a letter?" "If they raise the minimum wage to $1, nobody will be able to hire outside help at the store." "When I first started driving, who would have thought gas would someday cost 29 cents a gallon.  Guess we’d be better off leaving the car in the garage." "Kids today are impossible.  Those duck tail hair cuts make it impossible to stay groomed.  Next thing you know, boys will be wearing their hair as long as the girls." "I’m afraid to send my kids to the movies any more.. Ever since they let Clark Gable get by with saying ‘damn’ in ‘Gone With The Wind,’ it seems every new movie has either "hell" or "damn" in it. "I read the other day where some scientist thinks it’s possible to put a man on the moon by the end of the of the century.  They even have some fellows they call astronauts preparing for it down in Texas." "Did you see where some baseball player just signed a contract for $75,000 a year just to play ball?  It wouldn’t surprise me if someday they’ll be making more than the president." "I never thought I’d see the day all our kitchen appliances would be electric..  They are even making electric typewriters now." "It’s too bad things are so tough nowadays.  I see where a few married women are having to work to make ends meet." "It won’t be long before young couples are going to have to hire someone to watch their kids so they can both work." "Marriage doesn’t mean a thing any more; those Hollywood stars seem to be getting divorced at the drop of a hat." "I’m just afraid the Volkswagen car is going to open the door to a whole lot of foreign business." "Thank goodness I won’t live to see the day when the Government takes half our income in taxes.  I sometimes wonder if we are electing the best people to congress." "The drive-in restaurant is convenient in nice weather, but I seriously doubt they will ever catch on." "There is no sense going to Lincoln or Omaha anymore for a weekend. It costs nearly $15 a night to stay in a hotel." "No one can afford to be sick any more; $35 a day in the hospital is too rich for my blood." "If they think I’ll pay 50 cents for a hair cut, forget it."

Response:

But we’re not talking about adjusted-for-inflation dollars.  We’re talking about actual at-the-pump prices, which were considerably less than $.29/gal when I started driving, or I wouldn’t have been so horrified at $.32/gal — and this was in ritzy Westchester County, NY, where prices for everything were higher.  (Don’t ask what we were doing living in such a ritzy area, I still don’t know!  <g) — Sylvia Steiger RN BS http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SylviaRN/quilting.htm Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SylviaRN/land.htm Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31

Response:

Funny but inaccurate.  $5000 bought a top-of-the-line Oldsmobile in 1970, so it was much less in 1957.

Measuring in the equivalent of 2001 dollars, that $5000 in 1957 would be equal to $31,446 today, while the purchasing power of $5000 in 1970 would be about the same as $22,727 today.  So, the value of money decreased roughly 28% in that time. And I remember being absolutely horrified when gas reached $.32/gal in 1972, so it must have been much less than $.29/gal in 1957.

From what I can tell, it was in fact about 27-29 cents a gallon in 1957, slightly more for ethyl.  : )  Adjusted for inflation (1995 dollars, from the DOE website), gas averaged $1.64/gal in 1957, and $1.21 in 1972. Jason

Response:

Presidents by official salary $25,000

$25,000 in 1800 = about $347,000 in 2001 $50,000 Ulysses S Grant [2nd term] – Theodore Roosevelt

$50K in 1870 = ~ $675K in 2001 $75,000 William H Taft – Harry S Truman

$75K in 1953 = $496,688 $100,000 Harry S Truman [2nd term] Dwight D Eisenhower John F Kennedy Lyndon B Johnson

$100K in 1972 = $421,940 $200K in 1980 = $429K in 2001.  Wow.  Basically this means the cost of living has *doubled* in 20 years. Here’s a shocker: The purchasing power of $1000 (as measured in 2001 dollars) in 1944 was about the same as in 1814, 130 years before Jason

Response:

[snip of good quotes] The Institute of Official Cheer has a collection of scans out of old books and pamphlets from the 40s, 50s and 60s. The Gallery of Regrettable Food is worth a look, as is the Permanent Collection of Impermanent Art. I really hope they get the Interior Desecrations section up and running soon. (He had to take it down because of bandwidth issues.) I never knew interior decoration could be so painful. http://www.lileks.com/institute/index.html

Thanks I bookmarked it.  this is how I spend cold weather. jig saw puzzles and visiting fun sites on the net.

Response:

Funny but inaccurate.  $5000 bought a top-of-the-line Oldsmobile in 1970, so it was much less in 1957.  And I remember being absolutely horrified when gas reached $.32/gal in 1972, so it must have been much less than $.29/gal in 1957. — Sylvia Steiger RN BS http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SylviaRN/quilting.htm Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/SylviaRN/land.htm Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31

Response:

In 1957 the minimum wage was already set at $1. It had been raised to $1 in 1955. Always take the info in these things with several grains of salt.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "If they raise the minimum wage to $1, nobody will be able to hire outside help at the store."

Response:

sweet teenager at that point, eh?? <G madgardener up on the ridge covered with snow, back in the holler, overlooking English Mountain covered in snow, temperatures holding at 35o in Eastern Tennessee zone 6b where it’s FINALLY WINTER….. (yeah, go put on another flannel shirt, Zhan)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I’ll tell you one thing, if things keep going the way they are, it’s going to be impossible to buy a week’s groceries for $20." "Have you seen the new cars coming out next year?  It won’t be long before $5000 will only buy a used one." "If cigarettes keep going up in price, I’m going to quit.  A quarter a pack is ridiculous.." "Did you hear the post office is thinking about charging a dime just to mail a letter?" "If they raise the minimum wage to $1, nobody will be able to hire outside help at the store." "When I first started driving, who would have thought gas would someday cost 29 cents a gallon.  Guess we’d be better off leaving the car in the garage." "Kids today are impossible.  Those duck tail hair cuts make it impossible to stay groomed.  Next thing you know, boys will be wearing their hair as long as the girls." "I’m afraid to send my kids to the movies any more.. Ever since they let Clark Gable get by with saying ‘damn’ in ‘Gone With The Wind,’ it seems every new movie has either "hell" or "damn" in it. "I read the other day where some scientist thinks it’s possible to put a man on the moon by the end of the of the century.  They even have some fellows they call astronauts preparing for it down in Texas." "Did you see where some baseball player just signed a contract for $75,000 a year just to play ball?  It wouldn’t surprise me if someday they’ll be making more than the president." "I never thought I’d see the day all our kitchen appliances would be electric..  They are even making electric typewriters now." "It’s too bad things are so tough nowadays.  I see where a few married women are having to work to make ends meet." "It won’t be long before young couples are going to have to hire someone to watch their kids so they can both work." "Marriage doesn’t mean a thing any more; those Hollywood stars seem to be getting divorced at the drop of a hat." "I’m just afraid the Volkswagen car is going to open the door to a whole lot of foreign business." "Thank goodness I won’t live to see the day when the Government takes half our income in taxes.  I sometimes wonder if we are electing the best people to congress." "The drive-in restaurant is convenient in nice weather, but I seriously doubt they will ever catch on." "There is no sense going to Lincoln or Omaha anymore for a weekend. It costs nearly $15 a night to stay in a hotel." "No one can afford to be sick any more; $35 a day in the hospital is too rich for my blood." "If they think I’ll pay 50 cents for a hair cut, forget it."

Response:

Un 1957 my parents paid the astronomical price of $26 for my first cigarette pack size transistor Radio. Today you can buy the same radio / or better for $2.95 — Denny Hurley 96, LT4, 6 Spd, Torch Red Conv. C     O     R     V     E     T     T     E

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I’ll tell you one thing, if things keep going the way they are, it’s going to be impossible to buy a week’s groceries for $20." "Have you seen the new cars coming out next year?  It won’t be long before $5000 will only buy a used one." "If cigarettes keep going up in price, I’m going to quit.  A quarter a pack is ridiculous.." "Did you hear the post office is thinking about charging a dime just to mail a letter?" "If they raise the minimum wage to $1, nobody will be able to hire outside help at the store." "When I first started driving, who would have thought gas would someday cost 29 cents a gallon.  Guess we’d be better off leaving the car in the garage." "Kids today are impossible.  Those duck tail hair cuts make it impossible to stay groomed.  Next thing you know, boys will be wearing their hair as long as the girls." "I’m afraid to send my kids to the movies any more.. Ever since they let Clark Gable get by with saying ‘damn’ in ‘Gone With The Wind,’ it seems every new movie has either "hell" or "damn" in it. "I read the other day where some scientist thinks it’s possible to put a man on the moon by the end of the of the century.  They even have some fellows they call astronauts preparing for it down in Texas." "Did you see where some baseball player just signed a contract for $75,000 a year just to play ball?  It wouldn’t surprise me if someday they’ll be making more than the president." "I never thought I’d see the day all our kitchen appliances would be electric..  They are even making electric typewriters now." "It’s too bad things are so tough nowadays.  I see where a few married women are having to work to make ends meet." "It won’t be long before young couples are going to have to hire someone to watch their kids so they can both work." "Marriage doesn’t mean a thing any more; those Hollywood stars seem to be getting divorced at the drop of a hat." "I’m just afraid the Volkswagen car is going to open the door to a whole lot of foreign business." "Thank goodness I won’t live to see the day when the Government takes half our income in taxes.  I sometimes wonder if we are electing the best people to congress." "The drive-in restaurant is convenient in nice weather, but I seriously doubt they will ever catch on." "There is no sense going to Lincoln or Omaha anymore for a weekend. It costs nearly $15 a night to stay in a hotel." "No one can afford to be sick any more; $35 a day in the hospital is too rich for my blood." "If they think I’ll pay 50 cents for a hair cut, forget it."

Response:

Lists of US Presidents http://www.fujisan.demon.co.uk/USPresidents/preslist.htm http://www.fujisan.demon.co.uk/USPresidents/plist4a.htm#pay Presidents by official salary $25,000 George Washington – Ulysses S Grant $50,000 Ulysses S Grant [2nd term] – Theodore Roosevelt $75,000 William H Taft – Harry S Truman $100,000 Harry S Truman [2nd term] Dwight D Eisenhower John F Kennedy Lyndon B Johnson $200,000 Richard Nixon Gerald Ford Jimmy Carter Ronald Reagan George Bush Bill Clinton $400,000 George W Bush

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That was interesting and funny but I thought the president made less than $75,000 back in 1957.  As far as I heard, it was never a great paying job and most presidents make much more after they are out of office just making speeches.  I did a quick search but couldn’t find any facts.  This is just what I recall from school so please correct me if I’m wrong. — Tony "Did you see where some baseball player just signed a contract for $75,000 a year just to play ball?  It wouldn’t surprise me if someday they’ll be making more than the president."

Response:

[snip of good quotes] The Institute of Official Cheer has a collection of scans out of old books and pamphlets from the 40s, 50s and 60s. The Gallery of Regrettable Food is worth a look, as is the Permanent Collection of Impermanent Art. I really hope they get the Interior Desecrations section up and running soon. (He had to take it down because of bandwidth issues.) I never knew interior decoration could be so painful. http://www.lileks.com/institute/index.html — Atara   "Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus." http://www.50degreesnorth.com/garden/index.html ***What doesn’t fit in my email addy? NADA.***

Response:

That was interesting and funny but I thought the president made less than $75,000 back in 1957.  As far as I heard, it was never a great paying job and most presidents make much more after they are out of office just making speeches.  I did a quick search but couldn’t find any facts.  This is just what I recall from school so please correct me if I’m wrong. — Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Did you see where some baseball player just signed a contract for $75,000 a year just to play ball?  It wouldn’t surprise me if someday they’ll be making more than the president."

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the link Bob. I read it and learned a few new things. It stated that the value of pulse charging has been argued. The Canadians may be even more expert when it comes to auto batteries. I think I know why! Best regards, Charlie

Response:

I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. Volkswagen has been putting the batteries under the back seat of Beetles for 40 years. BTW, engineers are often mandated to keep costs down. An 8 ga wire to the fender " may " provide an adequate ground path on a new vehicle with no corrosion in the path to the starter, but common sense and a lot of experience tell me that a direct grnd to the starter or eng block would be a lot better. Just my opinion.  Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK on the comments on the "maintenance free" batteries. Before I bought my 99 Buick I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. As to voltage my car battery has a constant voltmeter and it now reads a steady 13.8v, when I was having a problem the voltage varied all the way from 13.0 to 14.0 volts.  So I blamed the excess paint on the fender  ground wire with the problem. Charlie It is kind of fun starting a newsgroup thread like this. First of all there is a 10 ten inch long black 8 ga. wire running to my Buick Park Avenues right front fender bolt which connects the negative side mounted battery terminal to chassis ground.  I did electrical wiring in 3 factories over a 40 year period so I know better than to change any wiring without engineering approval. I did see one old Ford pickup truck which had a positive ground. but all other cars I have seen had a heavy wire connecting the negative battery terminal to a fender or other chassis point.  I have some bias toward sealed cell  batteries because I do not know much about them. Charlie Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts. Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price. I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries

… read more »

Response:

I think there is a lead to a spare terminal under the hood that can be used for jumper cables. Cheers, Indrek Aavisto Sudbury, Ontario – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George I test drove a 2000 LeSabres which had the rear seat battery. I did not actually look at it but I assumed the salesman was telling me the truth. I would wonder how one could jumper a weak battery, perhaps there is some place near the engine where one could do it, as it would be clumsy to me to reach the battery terminals when the battery is under the rear seat.  When a fender ground bolt becomes oxidized I expect there to be some current resistance so I sanded off the paint and had the tinned eye terminal of the ground wire pressed against the bare fender metal. After the car is a couple years old and oxidation sets in there could be some strange symptoms in the cars performance. :The Buick models with that setup: :1995-1999 Buick Riviera (Olds Aurora also) :2000 and newer LeSabres (Other H-cars also maybe?) thanks, learn something new. Are they regular maintenance free batteries or something semi exotic like AGM?

Response:

From the Car Battery FAQ (http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm): "If you replace a sealed maintenance free battery in a GM car with a non-sealed lead-antimony or lead-antimony/calcium low maintenance battery, you will need to check the electrolyte levels more often.  This is because GM sets their voltage regulators at higher charging voltage, 14.8 volts, to recharge the sealed maintenance free lead-calcium/calcium batteries, like the original AC Delco batteries." — Robert Hancock      Saskatoon, SK, Canada Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

George I test drove a 2000 LeSabres which had the rear seat battery. I did not actually look at it but I assumed the salesman was telling me the truth. I would wonder how one could jumper a weak battery, perhaps there is some place near the engine where one could do it, as it would be clumsy to me to reach the battery terminals when the battery is under the rear seat.  When a fender ground bolt becomes oxidized I expect there to be some current resistance so I sanded off the paint and had the tinned eye terminal of the ground wire pressed against the bare fender metal. After the car is a couple years old and oxidation sets in there could be some strange symptoms in the cars performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :The Buick models with that setup: :1995-1999 Buick Riviera (Olds Aurora also) :2000 and newer LeSabres (Other H-cars also maybe?) thanks, learn something new. Are they regular maintenance free batteries or something semi exotic like AGM?

Response:

Myron, One advantage to that model A was that the battery was away from the engine  as batteries do not like heat. Then again in cold weather some heat can help battery performance. I think in Minnesota every one comes to learn about how to take good care of batteries. As Garrison Keillor said, "the men talk about gas mileage and the women talk about hot dish recipies." Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first car (in 1955) was a 1930 Ford A-model. It’s battery was under the driver’s seat. There was no arrangement for venting as I recall, but there was enough airflow through the body it was probably unnecessary! Myron E. Williams OK on the comments on the "maintenance free" batteries. Before I bought my 99 Buick I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. As to voltage my car battery has a constant voltmeter and it now reads a steady 13.8v, when I was having a problem the voltage varied all the way from 13.0 to 14.0 volts.  So I blamed the excess paint on the fender  ground wire with the problem. Charlie It is kind of fun starting a newsgroup thread like this. First of all there is a 10 ten inch long black 8 ga. wire running to my Buick Park Avenues right front fender bolt which connects the negative side mounted battery terminal to chassis ground.  I did electrical wiring in 3 factories over a 40 year period so I know better than to change any wiring without engineering approval. I did see one old Ford pickup truck which had a positive ground. but all other cars I have seen had a heavy wire connecting the negative battery terminal to a fender or other chassis point.  I have some bias toward sealed cell  batteries because I do not know much about them. Charlie Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain

… read more »

Response:

:The Buick models with that setup: :1995-1999 Buick Riviera (Olds Aurora also) :2000 and newer LeSabres (Other H-cars also maybe?) thanks, learn something new. Are they regular maintenance free batteries or something semi exotic like AGM?

Response:

I’m sure they are just regular maintenance free.  They are somewhat longer than a common battery though, so the part number is not the same. -NC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :The Buick models with that setup: :1995-1999 Buick Riviera (Olds Aurora also) :2000 and newer LeSabres (Other H-cars also maybe?) thanks, learn something new. Are they regular maintenance free batteries or something semi exotic like AGM?

Response:

My first car (in 1955) was a 1930 Ford A-model. It’s battery was under the driver’s seat. There was no arrangement for venting as I recall, but there was enough airflow through the body it was probably unnecessary! Myron E. Williams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK on the comments on the "maintenance free" batteries. Before I bought my 99 Buick I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. As to voltage my car battery has a constant voltmeter and it now reads a steady 13.8v, when I was having a problem the voltage varied all the way from 13.0 to 14.0 volts.  So I blamed the excess paint on the fender  ground wire with the problem. Charlie It is kind of fun starting a newsgroup thread like this. First of all there is a 10 ten inch long black 8 ga. wire running to my Buick Park Avenues right front fender bolt which connects the negative side mounted battery terminal to chassis ground.  I did electrical wiring in 3 factories over a 40 year period so I know better than to change any wiring without engineering approval. I did see one old Ford pickup truck which had a positive ground. but all other cars I have seen had a heavy wire connecting the negative battery terminal to a fender or other chassis point.  I have some bias toward sealed cell  batteries because I do not know much about them. Charlie Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure

… read more »

Response:

Since your having fun, I used to own an MG with batteries (yes plural, 2 6volt) behind the only ie front seats.  AND all the HMMWV ("Hum-Vees") I worked on in the military (USMC) had 2 12 volt batts (24 volt system) under the front passenger seat.  You would hardly be a guinea pig.  I’m glad the sanding fixed your problem although it raises a question in my mind as to current transference and surface area, ie the threads of the bolt should do the work.  Or is there no "wellnut" at the bolt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: HickoryTech Internet Newsgroups: alt.autos.gm OK on the comments on the "maintenance free" batteries. Before I bought my 99 Buick I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. As to voltage my car battery has a constant voltmeter and it now reads a steady 13.8v, when I was having a problem the voltage varied all the way from 13.0 to 14.0 volts.  So I blamed the excess paint on the fender  ground wire with the problem.

Response:

:Since your having fun, I used to own an MG with batteries (yes plural, 2 :6volt) behind the only ie front seats.  AND all the HMMWV ("Hum-Vees") miata in the trunk too, but its suprising that a modern car has them actually in the passenger compartment. What buick is that? I wonder if its a differnet sort of batterey since a wet cell has potential to leak acid or vent hydrogen gas even if its supposedly sealed maintence free.

Response:

George, The batteries under the rear seat are a different part number, and there is a vent tube system that attaches to the vent ports found on Delco batteries. The Buick models with that setup: 1995-1999 Buick Riviera (Olds Aurora also) 2000 and newer LeSabres (Other H-cars also maybe?) There are probably other GM cars using the battery under the seat, but I’m only familiar with the Buicks.  I think that location is okay in the original setup.  Unfortunately some people don’t replace the battery with one that can accept the vent tubes.  There are even warning tags that stress the need for venting at risk of corrosion and seat belt webbing damage. Obviously a maint free is needed to attach the vent tubes. -Nick PS:  There is also a thermister attached to the battery cable which senses the battery temp and adjusts charging voltage output accordingly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Since your having fun, I used to own an MG with batteries (yes plural, 2 :6volt) behind the only ie front seats.  AND all the HMMWV ("Hum-Vees") miata in the trunk too, but its suprising that a modern car has them actually in the passenger compartment. What buick is that? I wonder if its a differnet sort of batterey since a wet cell has potential to leak acid or vent hydrogen gas even if its supposedly sealed maintence free.

Response:

OK on the comments on the "maintenance free" batteries. Before I bought my 99 Buick I looked at one new Buick which had the battery located under the back seat. The idea was appealing from the stand point of avoiding the problem of very high or very low temperatures but I was uneasy about the unorthodox way of building the car. I am one of those who hates being a guinea pig. As to voltage my car battery has a constant voltmeter and it now reads a steady 13.8v, when I was having a problem the voltage varied all the way from 13.0 to 14.0 volts.  So I blamed the excess paint on the fender  ground wire with the problem. Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is kind of fun starting a newsgroup thread like this. First of all there is a 10 ten inch long black 8 ga. wire running to my Buick Park Avenues right front fender bolt which connects the negative side mounted battery terminal to chassis ground.  I did electrical wiring in 3 factories over a 40 year period so I know better than to change any wiring without engineering approval. I did see one old Ford pickup truck which had a positive ground. but all other cars I have seen had a heavy wire connecting the negative battery terminal to a fender or other chassis point.  I have some bias toward sealed cell  batteries because I do not know much about them. Charlie Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires.

… read more »

Response:

:No, George, if his first post is right he has a missing ground cable. im just saying a pigtail screwed to the fender aint it. :I would have :thought the starter current would have melted that body ground wire. most certainly, if you are lucky it will just melt and wont set something on fire.

Response:

I’m not sure what you have there but surely the main battery ground cable doesn’t connect to the fender.

Maybe someone removed the ground wire from the battery to the block and "electricians"

Response:

It is kind of fun starting a newsgroup thread like this. First of all there is a 10 ten inch long black 8 ga. wire running to my Buick Park Avenues right front fender bolt which connects the negative side mounted battery terminal to chassis ground.  I did electrical wiring in 3 factories over a 40 year period so I know better than to change any wiring without engineering approval. I did see one old Ford pickup truck which had a positive ground. but all other cars I have seen had a heavy wire connecting the negative battery terminal to a fender or other chassis point.  I have some bias toward sealed cell  batteries because I do not know much about them. Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing. Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. -Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas.

This is a new one to me.  According to what I’ve read, optimal charging voltage for a lead-acid battery varies with ambient temperature.  A car is operated at such wide temperature variations that I don’t think your ever going to see optimal charging voltage across either type of battery. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing.

Yes, also the residue is like oil and will spread all over the top of the battery and get into all the metal parts and rot them out. Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage.

I think all 12v auto charging systems I’ve seen are set to 13.8 I’d be real interested in anything different. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I

also I disagree with this because auto parts are some of the most widely manufactured parts and are made in such high volume that any price variance is going to be at the retailer’s level, due to their ordering volume and discounts. There’s really little difference between the sealed cells and the open cells, you can use a saw and cut off the top of a sealed battery and the cells inside have water electrolyte same as the open ones. I think that the main reason you see open cells still is that the do it yourselfers prefer to buy them over the sealed ones, because "that’s what my grandpa used" There is also one other benefit, if the voltage regulator in the car goes gunnysack and boils a lot of the water out of the battery, you can add water back in and sometimes buy a few months more of life out of the battery. Having a visible water level is also handy for a quick check of the charging system, you can’t stick in a hydrometer to a sealed battery, and a hydrometer is really the only truly accurate measure of a battery’s state of charge since it tests each cell. suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road.

In my experience if everything in the charging system is clean and tight and all connections are good, and all diodes in the alternator are good and the regulator is good, you never have to add water to a battery.  Chemically, you should not have to.  Car batteries in normal operation do not consume water. I think the main reason the automakers use sealed cells is the danger of a cap coming off a open cell during shipping.  Sealed cells are also certifyable to ship by air, although I doubt anyone ships auto batteries by air!  You can imagine if a cap comes off a brand new $20K car as it’s being shipped to the dealer, by the time the dealer gets it, battery acid will have made a holy terror of a mess of the engine compartment. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed.

You need to clean even the "maintainence free" batteries too, as it’s almost a guarentee that no matter how good everything is, that there will be corrosion in this area.  Both types of batteries have vents and evaporated sulphuric acid eventually drifts out and corrodes the battery terminals, even the GM style where the terminals are on the side of the battery.  Also, all battery posts penetrate the battery case and use embedded rubber seals in this area, and I’ve seen many older batteries, specially top post ones, that this seal leaks.   At least once a year you really need to pull off the battery cables and wire brush the contact surfaces. Also one other piece of advice I’ve learned, ignore the manufacturers recommendations and always buy the highest CCA battery that they sell that has the same group number.  The extra power isn’t used when the battery is new, but as batteries age they lose capacity, and 3 years later when it’s lost 25% of it’s capacity, it will still be able to turn over the motor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –Nick Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

:trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter :from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to :not recharge the battery properly. I’m not sure what you have there but surely the main battery ground cable doesn’t connect to the fender.

Response:

my 92 astro has the original delco. thats 119 months! never has been drained dead, that helps. hope i can make it through the winter. its still running strong, but i can tell its a bit weaker.

Response:

No, George, if his first post is right he has a missing ground cable. Charlie, look again for a large 1/4" or 3/8" diameter ground cable running from your negative battery post to the engine block. The insulation will probably be black. If that is missing, it is surprising the car ever ran. I would have thought the starter current would have melted that body ground wire. If it is missing, install one soon. Yesterday is recommended. Myron E. Williams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter :from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to :not recharge the battery properly. I’m not sure what you have there but surely the main battery ground cable doesn’t connect to the fender.

Response:

Charlie: And you will be adding water too!  The charging system is set for a maintenance free type battery.  The best thing is to replace it with another maintenance free of the same group number.  The slightly higher charging system output voltage will cause "open top" batteries to release more gas. Not only is it messy, it is corrosive to the adjacent metal parts.  Also, the battery will now need cleaning now and then, otherwise the battery will self-dischage due to the residue on the case left by the gassing.  Put your voltmeter on one of the posts and trace across the top of the battery to the other post and you can read the voltage. Really, there is only one reason I can think of that these types of batteries are still marketed for modern cars.  The reason is price.   I also suspect that the sellers of those batteries are well aware that most people will never add water like they should, which equals more battery sales down the road. That battery will work just fine for you, but you must understand that it is not a "maintenance free."  There for it must be a "maintenance required" battery, so expect to do maintenance on it, especially the cleaning and adding of water.  Clean it every few months (especially before winter) and fill it as needed. -Nick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jed, my owners manual states that batteries and tires are not covered by warranty. Hence I thought I might as well buy a new battery. I went to Sam’s Club and had one of those Champions with a 3 year warranty put in. I can now also refill the water level which I could not do before. Before the battery replacement I would have mysterious things like the car completely dieing when on the freeway, beginning with the radio going out first. Now with a new battery there has not been a bit of trouble. I assumed that the poor negative wire contact with the fender (painted) could have caused any high current device like the starter from working. At least the  poor contact would cause the alternator to not recharge the battery properly. Charlie batteries are 3 yr/36000 miles same as the rest of the car. jed Unfortunately the batteries do not always last as long as they should, but I don’t think that all "early" failures are a result of a vehicle problem. Some batteries simply don’t last a long time.  I heard once that Delco Freedom batteries are less tolerant of being deep-cycled than other batteries are, and there seems to be some truth to that.  But considering that this car has run-down protection, that is an unlikely cause of failure. Most likely, the battery was less that perfect to begin with. Lastly, batteries are covered under the warranty to a certain point, but I can’t remember how long that is.  The Midtronics tester was even released as an essential tool and its use is required for warranty replacement of batteries due to the large number of good batteries that were being replaced. As an afterthought, the electrical loads on that model are extremely high. When everything is running and the car is idling, the battery has to make up for what the generator cannot supply. -Nick Last June I experienced an early battery failure on my 1999 Buick Park Avenue. When I looked under the hood I discovered that where the battery negative cable contacts the frame the fender had been painted well, but the only battery negative contact was through the bolt threaded into the fender. I used a small sander and removed the paint where the bolt goes into the fender and hope this removes future battery problems.Other than this I love the Park Avenue.Has anyone else had a similar problem? Of course the warranty does not cover batteries or tires. Charlie

Response:

Question:

Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

Just wear your seatbelt and keep your eyes peeled.  You never know who is out there driving recklessly. JJ

Response:

Boy, Dwight!…I feel for you.  Don’t be the , "third times a charm." please. — Lisa M. ‘98GT with a few extras www.abetterview.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

I was driving down a two lane street in the city once, and was beside this HUGE old Jeep stationwagon that was in my way to get over to make a turn up ahead. I was in my 5.0 so I punched it very quick to get ahead of him, as I was only two roads away from where I needed to be (about a mile away for my turn). Just as I punched it, and my rear end was at his hood, a full size truck took out this Jeep and in my rear view saw it go flying through my lane (he ran a red light). I could fill the impact inside my car as I was accelerating away. Felt (yes felt) like a bomb going off. Anway, that was the day I was glad to own a Mustang! Chad   69 Mach1 83 5.0 GT (For sale, see web page) 00 Solar TJ Sport http://www.geocities.com/chadsmach1/

Response:

Just wear your seatbelt and keep your eyes peeled.  You never know who is out there driving recklessly. JJ

Hmmm.  Normally, it’s ME! )

Response:

All I can say is that every time you get behind a wheel, step on a plane, go for a boat ride or even cross the street, you’re playing Russian Roulette. So…  count your blessings, live for today and never take anything or anyone for granted..  You never know when it’s your time. Accidents happen…  It’s just too bad that every once in a while it’s an accident born out of stupidity on someone’s part. Let’s keep our roads and waterways safe. If we all do our part to pay more attention to what we’re doing, we increase our chances of survival accordingly. A friend of mine was involved in a very serious car accident 4 weeks ago. 7:30am on the way to work, she came around a curve on a secondary highway and all of a sudden was blinded by the sun reflecting off the windshield of an on-coming dump truck. There was a school bus stopped in front of her waiting to turn left. She hit the rear end of that school bus doing a little over 65mph (At least that’s where the speedometer was stuck at impact). She’s okay and she will survive but she’s totally blind in one eye, can hardly see out of the other, a crushed eye socket, a few broken ribs, crushed wrist and several other contusions. She’ll be in physiotherapy for at least a year and who knows if she’ll ever be normal again (Physically or mentally). Obviously it’s much easier to blame the sun’s reflection off the truck’s windshield but the truth is that if she wasn’t speeding, she probably wouldn’t be in such bad shape. Also it’s a good thing she was driving a company car ( 2000 Ford Taurus) as opposed to her own car (1999 Chevy Cavalier). — Cheers Caffary 2000 Mustang GT Convertible 5-Speed Laser Red, Black Top, Parchment Leather Interior. (No mods yet but considering 3.55 gears) 2002 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 5-Speed Sport Platinum with Charcoal Sport Leather interior. The 2000 Expedition is history.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

That’s a drag. Sunlight can be pretty dangerous.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All I can say is that every time you get behind a wheel, step on a plane, go for a boat ride or even cross the street, you’re playing Russian Roulette. So…  count your blessings, live for today and never take anything or anyone for granted..  You never know when it’s your time. Accidents happen…  It’s just too bad that every once in a while it’s an accident born out of stupidity on someone’s part. Let’s keep our roads and waterways safe. If we all do our part to pay more attention to what we’re doing, we increase our chances of survival accordingly. A friend of mine was involved in a very serious car accident 4 weeks ago. 7:30am on the way to work, she came around a curve on a secondary highway and all of a sudden was blinded by the sun reflecting off the windshield of an on-coming dump truck. There was a school bus stopped in front of her waiting to turn left. She hit the rear end of that school bus doing a little over 65mph (At least that’s where the speedometer was stuck at impact). She’s okay and she will survive but she’s totally blind in one eye, can hardly see out of the other, a crushed eye socket, a few broken ribs, crushed wrist and several other contusions. She’ll be in physiotherapy for at least a year and who knows if she’ll ever be normal again (Physically or mentally). Obviously it’s much easier to blame the sun’s reflection off the truck’s windshield but the truth is that if she wasn’t speeding, she probably wouldn’t be in such bad shape. Also it’s a good thing she was driving a company car ( 2000 Ford Taurus) as opposed to her own car (1999 Chevy Cavalier). — Cheers Caffary 2000 Mustang GT Convertible 5-Speed Laser Red, Black Top, Parchment Leather Interior. (No mods yet but considering 3.55 gears) 2002 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 5-Speed Sport Platinum with Charcoal Sport Leather interior. The 2000 Expedition is history. Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

That’s a good thing about having a cell phone handy. Hit and runs are a hell of allot easier to report. Get the plate and let the police do the rest. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Too true. Especially since I was hit from behind by an old piece of shit truck once at a traffic light. As I pulled in to the side, the fucker just took off. Knowing Texas, it was probably an illegal immigrant without insurance who didn’t want trouble with the police. — "By the time we’ve finished with him, he won’t know whether he’s Number Six or the cube root of infinity!" 7777772e63732e7574657861732e6564752f75736572732f65696768746269742f

Response:

My last accident was 7 years ago. I was waiting to make a left-hand turn on a busy 4 lane in Ann Arbor, Mi (sitting in the turn lane–wheels pointed ahead), a large blue Lincoln Town Car behind me.   A white Ford van plowed (at 45 mph) into the right rear corner of the Lincoln, going up on two wheels–the Lincoln was accordioned, pushed forward into the left rear corner of my ‘86 Mustang LX 5.0 notchback–pushing me to the right where the van on two wheels drove down the side of my Mustang.  Other than mild whiplash, I was fine (the 75-yr old lady in the Lincoln was unhurt as well, so was the moron in the van that confused his accelerator with his brake pedal).  The Mustang was totalled–the rear end folded down, both doors wouldn’t open, the rear window and quarter windows blown out, passenger door and right front fender mashed in from the van.  All in a split second.  I felt very lucky to have been in that car instead of my ‘87 Mustang GT or my ‘88 Bronco II I had then.  Scary stuff. Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

Response:

Kevin, yesterday at about 9 in the morning, this guy is heading down I-64, decides he wants to go back the way he came.  He turns at one of those cut-thru’s that the cops sit at, whips the "U"ey an heads back the other way.  Well, the inside lane he was in petered out.  He figured he was up to speed and clear so he pulled into the next lane, right into the front of a 18 wheeler.  The truck promptly punted the dumbass into the woods in the middle of the interstate.  The guy head-on’ed a tree at about 50 mph.  I got to cut him out with one of the two Hurst tools we had working the car over.  That was pretty cool cause I don’t get to use one often. Our engine dosen’t have one on it. Anyway, my boy learned a lesson that he won’t soon forget about checking his blind spot.  He had a flailed chest, punctured lung, broken pelvis, bone sticking out of his left forearm, broken right elbow, broken right femur(thigh bone) and I forget what else. He was under the dash, which had folded over the front seat.  Only his head and shoulders were visable.  We tried to have him flown out, but the Nightingale copter was broke down.  Bet he’s hurting about right now. Ronnie in Chesapeake 95gt/aode/s-trim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Kevin Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

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That’s a drag. Sunlight can be pretty dangerous.

That’s why Seattle is so great. We don’t have to deal with the sun that much… :0P Although, I did read somewhere once (how’s that for accuracy in citation?) that Western Washington residents buy the most sunglasses annually compared to the rest of the nation. When we don’t need them (which is most of the time), we loose them. When we do need them (when the sun comes out, it really comes out!), we go buy a new pair to replace the lost pair. — ~/Garth ‘83 V6 GL Hatch (A K A V6stang) "I always wanted to be a procrastinator, but never got around to it."

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Ronnie, how you can deal with seeing that stuff is beyond me. You sir are a better man than I. Speaking of the jaws of Life, there’s a big stink in town over a county not allowing funds for one of the Rescue teams to buy the Hurst equipment, but they are instead using the money for some stupid recreation crap. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin, yesterday at about 9 in the morning, this guy is heading down I-64, decides he wants to go back the way he came.  He turns at one of those cut-thru’s that the cops sit at, whips the "U"ey an heads back the other way.  Well, the inside lane he was in petered out.  He figured he was up to speed and clear so he pulled into the next lane, right into the front of a 18 wheeler.  The truck promptly punted the dumbass into the woods in the middle of the interstate.  The guy head-on’ed a tree at about 50 mph.  I got to cut him out with one of the two Hurst tools we had working the car over.  That was pretty cool cause I don’t get to use one often. Our engine dosen’t have one on it. Anyway, my boy learned a lesson that he won’t soon forget about checking his blind spot.  He had a flailed chest, punctured lung, broken pelvis, bone sticking out of his left forearm, broken right elbow, broken right femur(thigh bone) and I forget what else. He was under the dash, which had folded over the front seat.  Only his head and shoulders were visable.  We tried to have him flown out, but the Nightingale copter was broke down.  Bet he’s hurting about right now. Ronnie in Chesapeake 95gt/aode/s-trim Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Kevin Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

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That’s a good thing about having a cell phone handy. Hit and runs are a hell of allot easier to report. Get the plate and let the police do the rest.

…Unfortunately that doesn’t always work.  I got clipped by the bumper of a heavy duty pickup that decided to change lanes on top of me.  Got his plates and called the police on my cell – they told me to not follow and that an officer would be by to take the report. Well, it apparently didn’t do much (if any) damage to his bumper, and when he denied the incident the cops let it drop. Since the damage wasn’t that bad (considering the age and overall condition of my car), it wasn’t worth the hassle of pursing through the courts/insurance system.  Still pisses me off though. It’s times like that I’m glad to be a "soon to be" Mustang owner (‘01 Cobra on order) – not a new Mustang owner.

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Ronnie, how you can deal with seeing that stuff is beyond me.

Drinking alot on my days off helps alot.  :) You sir are a better man than I.

Not hardly dude.  Everybody likes you.  Very few like me.  hehe Speaking of the jaws of Life, there’s a big stink in town over a county not allowing funds for one of the Rescue teams to buy the Hurst equipment, but they are instead using the money for some stupid recreation crap.

Strange how human nature is.  If the county officials witnessed a loved one being stuck in a crushed car for an extended amount of time or dying in it, due to lack of Hurst tools on the trucks, they would jack the taxes up, cutoff everything service in the county till they had the equipment they need so that dosen’t happen again.  Hell, we had two tools working on that guy.  During a nasty head collision there could be a need for 3 or even 4 if you had them. Ronnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin Kevin, yesterday at about 9 in the morning, this guy is heading down I-64, decides he wants to go back the way he came.  He turns at one of those cut-thru’s that the cops sit at, whips the "U"ey an heads back the other way.  Well, the inside lane he was in petered out.  He figured he was up to speed and clear so he pulled into the next lane, right into the front of a 18 wheeler.  The truck promptly punted the dumbass into the woods in the middle of the interstate.  The guy head-on’ed a tree at about 50 mph.  I got to cut him out with one of the two Hurst tools we had working the car over.  That was pretty cool cause I don’t get to use one often. Our engine dosen’t have one on it. Anyway, my boy learned a lesson that he won’t soon forget about checking his blind spot.  He had a flailed chest, punctured lung, broken pelvis, bone sticking out of his left forearm, broken right elbow, broken right femur(thigh bone) and I forget what else. He was under the dash, which had folded over the front seat.  Only his head and shoulders were visable.  We tried to have him flown out, but the Nightingale copter was broke down.  Bet he’s hurting about right now. Ronnie in Chesapeake 95gt/aode/s-trim Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Kevin Thursday night, on the way home, I watched in disbelief as a new Subaru Legacy ahead of me went up on two wheels, came down with a thud, and skidded up onto the curb.  Seems he’d clipped a parked Jeep Cherokee – the whole right side of his car was gouged and scraped, his RV mirror was sheared off, both airbags deployed, and his windshield was shattered. Doing my civic duty, I pulled up behind his car and put my flashers on to protect him, while making sure everyone was okay, directing traffic around him, and waiting for the police. Eh.  Stuff happens. Two days later, it’s Saturday and I find myself in Delaware. Third car at the light. Light turns green, there’s that half-second delay, and then we begin to accelerate. Just as in COPS, a piece of sh*t Chevy comes SAILING through the red light and perfectly broadsides the first car in my lane. The force of the impact was horrific, and I pulled to a stop, threw on my flashers, and fully expected to see a fatality (I was actually afraid to get out of my car). But by the time I reached the car that was struck, the woman driver was climbing out of her window (the door being useless). Looking across the road at the striker, I saw two others already helping HER climb out the driver side window, too.  Incredible. 20 or 30 years ago, both drivers would have been dead, I’m sure of it. In this case, the sailer was stone drunk (naturally, since it was already 2:30 in the afternoon), and looked like she’d escaped from a Jerry Springer screening. The woman she plowed into was driving a new Volkswagen something or other (Passat?) – I recommended that she buy another one of those! The thing took about the worst broadside hit possible, and it was mangled beyond recognition, but she was able to walk away from it. So that’s two. If it’s true that trouble comes in threes, it’s best that you all stay out of sight of that black Mustang 5.0 hatchback out there… dwight

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Man it’s scary enough when you witness a small fender bender happen, I couldn’t imagine seeing two nasty wrecks like that in the course of a few days. That sound of two cars colliding…it sickens me. Too true. Especially since I was hit from behind by an old piece of shit truck once at a traffic light. As I pulled in to the side, the fucker just took off. Knowing Texas, it was probably an illegal immigrant without insurance who didn’t want trouble with the police.

I was bumped from behind on monday. The old dude driving an oldsmobile actully sent my mustang into a saturn ahead of me. This was at a light. No damage to any car, luckily. The dude gets out and starts telling me how sorry he is and that he is coming from radiation treatment. I am thinking, "great, a walking chernobyl". I actually told him to apologize to my car and he did. He turned to it and appologized. Since there was no damage we all went our own ways. Dima F. 1987 Mustang 2.3Lx (remove "1987" from e-mail to e-mail me) "A horse never runs so fast as when he has other horses to catch up and outpace" — Ovid "Words of Wisdom" "Computer games don’t affect kids; if Pac-man had affected us as kids, we’d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."  – unknown

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